Connacht Team Talk Thread VI - Some like it TOH

Yeah, I remember Leo Cullen saying it on one of those slightly more casual post-match interviews last season out on the pitch with the ex-players, where his comment was: "the challenge for us is always how do we get 50 games into these younger guys…" - the implication being that it kind of took that long to properly evaluate young players.

Tom Clarkson is often held up as a prime example. He didn't come from nowhere - he was a blue chip prospect who won a Senior Cup, started two years for the U20s at THP (won a Grand Slam the first season, second season was on track before COVID interrupted). But he struggled terribly when he first started playing for Leinster, was regularly the most penalised prop in the league and was very frequently seen as a guy not worth persisting with.

It kind of took him to get to roughly the 40-50 cap level before the green shoots of progress started to emerge, and he's made huge strides since then.

When you look at the guys in the Connacht squad who have been approaching that level of caps this season:

• Sam Illo - 46 caps
• Ben Murphy - 47 caps (14 at Leinster)
• Darragh Murray - 57 caps

These are all guys who I think have made a leap this season, and I think it's generally a good level of games to make a proper assessment on what you're seeing with a young player.

Agree completely - a bit like Jack over the last year or two.

Age groups denoted below:

15. Cian Brady – Galwegians RFC (u21)
14. Chay Mullins – Corinthians RFC
13. Thomas Cotton – Buccaneers RFC (u20)
12. Tom Waters – Corinthians RFC
11. Daniel Ryan – Corinthians RFC (u20)
10. Conor O'Shaughnessy – Galwegians RFC (u20)
9. Albert Lindner – Galwegians RFC (u20)
1. Adam Cooper - Corinthians RFC (u20)
2. Mikey Yarr – Corinthians RFC (u21)
3. Fiachna Barrett – Ballina RFC/Corinthians RFC
4. Leo Anic – Creggs RFC (u19)
5. Dara Walsh - Corinthians RFC (u18)
6. Charlie Keane - Corinthians RFC (u20)
7. Max Flynn (C) - Corinthians RFC (u21)
8. Sean O'Brien

Replacements

16. Matthew Early – Sligo Rugby Club
17. Rory Lyons - Corinthians RFC (u20)
18. Luke Murtagh - Galwegians RFC (u20)
19. Aaron O’Brien – Corinthians RFC (u21)
20. Dylan Keane - Galwegians RFC
21. Fiachra O’Neill – Connemara RFC (u19)
22. Billy Cross – Corinthians RFC (u19)
23. Oisin McKey - Galwegians RFC
24. Paddy Taylor - Naas RFC (u21)

Lasisi hasn't been chosen all season?

Finlay is definitely number one, ElisaAtWar is just taking poetic license.

Sam Illo has made great headway over the last year, another year or two of this progress and we'll hardly notice the difference when Finlay eventually hangs up his boots. But for now, it's the man with the crazy hair who has a Lions jersey, nearly 60 caps, and a grá for scrummaging that's hard to beat. Numero uno, that's him.

I agree that we need to contract another prop. The expectation is that we'll take at least one more into the Academy as well, I hope we find a LH and a TH, but we're not going to strike gold immediately like we have with Bohan (and Barrett).

Based on the rumours, Aungier is definitely going south which makes sense. While it's amazing to have him, Sam, Finlay and Barrett on the books, it's excessive for a team functioning on our budget. We're incredibly lucky at TH.

The time in the west has worked out well for Jack, he's a Connacht centurion and Irish international. Everyone respects him, but it's going to be hard for him to pursue his international ambitions with us, which is where he should be. He will be a regular starter and in every 23 at Munster, it makes sense for him and Ireland. And the southerners need him, shame on them for their negligence in front row development.

Buckley is a wily prop and has been a great servant, but my impression is he gives away more penalties than he used to and contributes less around the field. An asset, yes, but at his age not irreplaceable. I like Dooley but have heard some criticism of him from other fans, not sure why or what their expectations were. would be happy to see him re-signed although there's talk of him returning to Dublin.

Hey Connacht fans, is this game being broadcast online anywahere?

I have said the same but used a 1000 mins as my point…

I was going on ROG saying that his first 10-11 games in an Irish Jersey was a blur… The change of pace was so dramatic that you aren't control, you aren't setting the pace…

There is also you initial play and then how you play when the video analysis guys do their work (I think Sam Prendergast is feeling this, this season)

I agree with you, there is a number… Probably think everyone is different… For a relief Prop playing 20 min a game, 50 games is about right.. Sam got a 1000th min by the 4th game this season, he is now around 1500min in his career..…

I don't think the pathway to playing time for a guy like Sami Bishti is much clearer at Connacht than it is at Leinster.

For Leinster, Tadhg Furlong is 34 this year, and barely features these days. It will be even more so next year as they look to manage him to a RWC. He's likely done after that IMO.

So then you've got a pecking order with Tom Clarkson (recently turned 26) at the top, and a lot of young props right after it. Bishti coming in won't see himself miles behind Niall Smyth (20 years old) or Andrew Sparrow (21 years old). Alex Mullan is similar age to those two, and hasn't played for Leinster yet either. It's a straight dogfight with a few guys of similar age to prove you're the best option.

At Connacht - there is a more defined pecking order IMO: Bealham is still clearly #1 and likely will be till the RWC. Sam Illo has had a strong season and is pushing Bealham for the #1 spot. He's 25 now, and looks the heir apparent. Fiachna Barrett is 23, has gotten decent minutes this year, and is also a few years ahead in his development. Bishti is coming in as the clear #4 in that pecking order, so I don't think there is much making that sound more attractive than Leinster.

There is a clearer path to playing time in either Ulster or Munster IMO.

On the loose head side: Leinster didn't have 7 LHPs this year, we had 6. One of those is a medical joker (Ed Byrne) who is gone at season's end, the other was a ST signing from the AIL who doesn't have a contract beyond season's end.

After that - there is a clear pecking order though between Porter as #1, Paddy McCarthy #2 and Jack Boyle #3, with Usanov pushing for more minutes. Jack Boyle has a severe injury and may not return till 2027.

I don't think it's sustainable longer term for all these guys to stay unfortunately, but I don't see anyone needing to move next season for game time. McCarthy is returning from long term injury, Porter's minutes will be minded.

I don't think your comparisons showing the minutes Leinster gives to young props is accurate or fair. You're using one good example from this season (Billy Bohan) to help the Connacht argument, but Leinster have an extensive track record of giving good minutes to young props. Fiachna Barrett or Sam Illo before relatively recently didn't exactly get brilliant opportunities as very young players either. You've focused on their first seasons post U20s, but ignored the fact Paddy McCarthy spent that season injured etc.

Bishti could look at Tom Clarkson and Sam Illo as good comparables. They were both Irish U20 starting THPs. Clarkson is 12 months older than Illo but has 77 games for Leinster (31 more than Illo), 40 starts (27 more than Illo) and 3,054 minutes (1,557 more than Illo).

Leinster does just fine developing young props.

To be fair the start of Illo and Barrett's careers aren't really relevant now, Lancaster has completely changed the way we use our academy players (i.e. actually giving them gametime).

I think that all things being equal, given the logjam currently, certain young Leinster front rows would be well served by going to work with Lancaster for a couple of years and then looking for a move back. But there are other factors at play, like their studies, family/friends, playing for their boyhood team etc.

Leinster do an amazing job with front rows but developing four players in the same position who were born within a few years of each other is just not possible. Better for the odd man out to move early imo, rather than waiting a few years to be squeezed out by the competition.

Yeah, it's a fair qualification, and Lancaster has (as he did at Leinster) shown a clear willingness to back young players and give them minutes if they're good enough.

I just didn't agree with the notion that Leinster don't give plenty of good opportunities to young players too though.

On players moving on - there has been widespread rumours for weeks of multiple teams trying to lure Niall Smyth away (and they must have been around before, as he was elevated to a senior contract while a Y1). I think they should all look to stay for the next year or so though and will all be backing themselves to be the one to push on and get good gametime.

Jack Boyle's injury probably removes the logjam on the LHP side for a while as well. We'll go into next season with Porter-McCarthy- Usanov as our first choice trio IMO.