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Russia-Ukraine War (continuing)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,562 ✭✭✭wassie


    She could move to Mariupol if she still wants to be by the sea.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,358 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    True, a pinkie promise isn't a legally binding obligation.

    Countries arguing semantics over whether they were "security guarantees" or "security assurances" depending on what language you read the memorandum in are acting in bad faith and possibly deliberately played on that ambiguity when the memorandum was signed.

    It is clear why Ukraine is reluctant to act on such reassurances again.

    USA's duplicity in the peace negotians with Russia make it clear it would be unwise to make any concessions based on anything less than deeds delivered and legally binding undertakings.

    It also makes negotiations with Iran more difficult as past deeds (or lack of them) has shown it is unwise to depend on others for your security. The best security would seem to be your own big bomb.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 128 ✭✭Mywifetoldme




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,522 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Dont forget the 50k+ abductions of Ukranian children, one of the worst recorded genocides in modern history, barely gets a mention.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 4,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    Belarus building military installations on border with Ukraine. Echoes of how the invasion started in 2022 when Kyiv was attacked. Might be another feint but Paul Warburg on Youtube thinks it could be significant.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,994 ✭✭✭✭josip


    So not worth the paper it was written on? What was the purpose of the agreement in that case? To dupe Ukraine into handing over the nukes?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,043 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    If you're asking me the ISW spell it Kostyantynivka.

    I copied my version from a post in Ukrainian translated to English. Trying to remember how to spell these Ukrainian settlements drives me up the wall especially when I see so many different variations and depending on Russian or Ukrainian they can be different too.

    I'm on the verge of a site ban. Please don't rage bait me, I'm easily triggered especially late at night!



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,843 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    A pinky promise to do what? Did anyone, even at the time, make so much as a verbal suggestion that they would get militarily involved if the memorandum was violated? The assurance was "I promise not to invade Ukraine". There was no assurance "If someone else breaks their promise, we'll send in the troops."

    Pretty much.

    All parties promised not to invade Ukraine. If one party does, the others promise to bring it up at the UN at first opportunity. See Paragraph 4.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭Detritus70


    "the others promise to bring it up at the UN at first opportunity"

    No doubt a bone-chilling threat that would make any evil empire think twice.

    Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,995 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    There may be no legal obligation (the worst mistake of President Clinton's tenure) but there absolutely is a moral obligation.

    Unfortunately you serve an amoral nation state and an immoral president.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,929 ✭✭✭zv2


    No idea. I suppose the gold market is fairly fluid and has no scruples about moral issues.

    It looks like history is starting up again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,358 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    The ambiguity in and between languages was cynically used to convince Ukraine to agree to signing the Budapest memorandum and give up the nuclear weapons it had while getting less than they believed they were been given.

    "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

    One can see why Ukraine are now reluctant to act on vague promises of support e.g. in the recent USA led 'peace negotions' with Russia.

    Asking Ukraine to give up one of its key strategies of targeting Russia's fuel supplies, (which hampers both Russia's war logistics and it's ability to raise funds to continue its war), while offering no alternative is both naïve and shows a lack of appreciation of history.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭bored65


    Ukrainian Genius strikes again

    Trumps fragile ego would not be able to stand constant news features about Russians attacking DonnyLand



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,361 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    That's the irony here - TACO (the guy elected on a promise of no more foreign wars before proceedings to send the military into Venezuela, threaten to take Greenland by force, hint that Cuba is next, and joined Israel in going to war with Iran mid-negotiations) will have simply hastened the rush for nations around the world to look at getting their own nuclear deterrent. Russia's allies have found out that they can't count on it for support. And TACO is gleefully threatening to tear up NATO and ditch the USA's traditional allies.

    If Ukraine still had its nuclear firepower it wouldn't have been invaded. It gave them up in good faith only to be shafted by Putin and the West. Iran has its nuclear programme and was in the process of negotiations when it was attacked by the US and Israel. It was in the process of further negotiations after that when it was attacked again.

    Apparently certain countries shouldn't be allowed to have nuclear weapons on account of their rogue-ness. Strangely enough, the US and Russia aren't among those countries.

    What's the lesson here? Might is right. Don't trust the US or Russia. And engage in d**k swinging contests at every opportunity to show how strong you are. Progress? Thanks TACO.

    I hope Zelenskyy outlasts TACO in office and gets the chance to gloat on the world stage. He strikes me as one of the few statesmen who would be willing to actually 'speak truth to power' regarding the way in which the US has undermined global security under TACO.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,843 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Perhaps, but in that case I will note that no country seems to have decided it is under any moral obligation to dive into the fray.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,995 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Well, your president's handler started "the fray" and as the only other signatories to the memorandum the UK could be seen as guilty of the same dereliction of their moral duty to support Ukraine. Though in terms of GDP they've given significantly more aid than the US and, more importantly, continue to give that aid long after the USA has decided it would rather work for Putin.

    EDIT: tbh, I don't expect you to understand this. Anyone still serving in the US military clearly has a dysfunctional moral compass.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,361 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    I suspect the situation will be different in the future as the US has relinquished its entitlement to act as the world's policeman. All pretences of acting from a moral standpoint have been dropped and the Europeans have belatedly realised that they can't depend on the US to lead the way anymore. Unfortunately as things stood/ still stand, the Europeans just don't yet have the military clout to take the kind of decisive first steps that the US would in the past have done. The EU being primarily a social and economic bloc also makes it more difficult for them to take cohesive military action on a full-bloc basis.

    I think history will look poorly on the Europeans for shirking their defence responsibilities, but I think it will look even more poorly on the US for firstly leveraging itself into position as the lead military power and manufacturer in NATO before then pulling the rug from under its allies.

    The bottom line for all of us is that the world does need a strong military presence from the liberal democracies. Europe let itself down through its inaction, but more damningly the US under TACO has massively let itself down through it's conscious acts. That's a political, not a military, criticism. I don't doubt that there are many more great Americans wanting their country to maintain its proud tradition of at least trying to be on the right side of history than there are morally bankrupt Trump cheerleaders.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,361 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Looks like the €90bn loan is almost over the line… no opposition confirmed today and should be formally passed tomorrow. Will count my chickens when they hatch though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭bored65


    At risk of going off on a tangent but currently Trump and Fox are busy slamming all the US allies (whom he 💩 on and threatened not so long ago) for not joining him “into the fray” in a parallel war he used to claim his democratic opponent would start and he would never get the involved in, yet he did just that

    🤷‍♂️

    I suspect this is why Ukraine is no longer even bothering to ask for US guarantees to end this war (European allies also stepped in biggly) as the only thing Russia understands are homegrown Ukrainian drones and missiles slamming into their critical infrastructure



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,361 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    The Ukrainians and Zelenskyy have had Trump's number for a long time. We need to make sure we get them into the fold on our side because they are formidable operators. It's funny how, from a war which was meant to castrate them, they've grown massively as a nation. It's noticeable how these days Zelenskyy looks every foreign leader in the eye as an equal, not someone out with a begging bowl, but someone who knows how vital his country's success is to Western Europe and who knows just how innovative/ world leading their military/ military industry is. Can't be many nations with the real-world battlefield nous they have.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,559 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    He doesn’t hold any cards according to the orange buffoon.

    We will see….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,043 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    90BN loan dependant on the pipeline resuming oil... So why would Russia not bomb it again. And they'll make it look like Ukraine did it.

    I'm on the verge of a site ban. Please don't rage bait me, I'm easily triggered especially late at night!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,361 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    I love how that pathetic comment has come back to haunt him. He's the opposite of everything the Ukrainians have demonstrated themselves to be - weak, cowardly, undisciplined, amoral and incapable of following through on his word. And the world now sees it. Master of the deal my hole. I really hope he lives just long enough to see his legacy dragged through the mud. And hopefully his family's fortunes begin to be unwound.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,361 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    That though occurred to me as well. I guess once the 90bn loan goes through, who cares. "Look Solvakia, Hungary… this is what your friends think of you." I think their leverage will be gone by then. And I'd imagine it would be well telegraphed by Kiev - they've become adept at highlighting false flag operations before they gain traction.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,843 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    If the argument is that moral responsibilities exist regardless of anything on paper, then the accusation stands regardless of which country is being referred to or if they signed any commitments. If the argument is that only those who signed the paper have a responsibility, then no accusation stands as only what's on the paper counts.

    It's got nothing to do with who the current president's "handler" is; you'll find, if you go back over my posting history, that I was not a fan of the US (or anyone else) keeping out of the conflict long before Trump was nominated in the primaries and that I have been consistent in this position for some four years. All countries have failed Ukraine, the US included.

    I don't appreciate the personal insult. Further, if my moral compass is telling me we should have been more active in repelling Russia's attack on Ukraine, and you consider that dysfunctional, I may wonder where yours is pointing to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,043 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    Maybe the EU will supply them with relief measures (undeserved) if Russia strike it again. Even the threat of this might prevent another Russian false flag because in that case they'll get nothing, but with the pipeline fixed they'll get a few billion at least.

    There are around 76 storage tanks in this area. I'm assuming when there will be plenty of targets for follow up strikes.

    I'm on the verge of a site ban. Please don't rage bait me, I'm easily triggered especially late at night!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,361 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Its ok though, Putin's mansions are well protected with air defence batteries. Move along, nothing to see here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭Dubh Geannain


    I heard on one of the podcasts I listened to recently he's got something like 20 protecting one of his mansions versus 60 similar systems protecting Moscow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,361 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    The Iranians have seen through Trump's bluster too and are having great craic taking the p*ss out of him online in front of the world. He's such an embarrassment to his nation. People said he'd drop Putin when Ukraine started turning the tide because he doesn't like being associated with losers - I'd say Putin will be looking to keep his distance because he doesn't like being associated with weak people.

    The Chinese leadership must be absolutely breaking their holes laughing when they tune in for their daily updates.

    At this point I honestly think Zelensky has taken the decision to drop the US as they reek of corruption and moral cowardice. Hopefully that €90bn goes through this week and they can strategise for the rest of the year. The sooner the EU settles the question of how Russian confiscated assets can be used the better.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,995 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    My argument is that the US (and Britain) are reneging on their responsibilies as signatories of the memorandum, using the legalese of the document as an excuse to break the spirit of it. I would, however, share your opinion that all democracies have failed Ukraine. Though, tbh, I'm not sure I consider the US to be a true democracy… the electoral college system, level of gerrymandering, legally accepted bribery under the guise of "lobbying" and lack of PRSTV make it something of a pseudo-democracy.

    The comment regarding a dysfunctional moral compass stems from the fact that I don't understand how anyone can remain in the US military: you're serving a tyrant. Members of the US military are currently comparable to henchmen serving a Bond Villain (or more accurately, a nefarious group of billionaire elites like SPECTRE from the same films).

    Yes, I know your oaths are to the constitution of the United States rather than to Donald Trump personally, or the office of POTUS. If you (or any other serving member of the US Armed Forces) took those oaths seriously, Donald Trump would be dead or imprisoned. You're even legally protected from doing so under the second ammendment of the constitution.

    At the very, very least, any officer of the United States armed forces with a working moral compass should be resigning their commissions in protest against their "Commander in Chief", his corruption, his paramilitaries killing citizens in the streets and his removal of your Generals that tell him things he doesn't want to hear.



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