Immigration and Ireland - MEGATHREAD *Mod Note Added 02/09/25*

That’s not what it means Stephen, that’s what the national budget is for, and I dunno ‘bout you but I fancy the idea of paying a lot less in tax than I do already, and I’d much rather more money was spent on public services like infrastructure, education, healthcare and so on, than is being spent on welfare (although the vast majority of the welfare budget is spent on pensions, and pensioners are more likely to vote than young people, so keeping pensioners happy is a greater priority for Government than. spending on people who can’t vote as they’re not old enough yet to do so) -

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2025/07/11/some-24m-people-were-receiving-social-protection-payments-last-year/

You can’t say that nobody wants to make excuses for scumbags when that’s exactly what mrslancaster did - the scumbag wouldn’t have behaved like a scumbag if it weren’t for the behaviour of another scumbag. That’s making excuses. They’re not our scumbags at all, I take no responsibility for them and I don’t expect you should either. If you want to, that’s entirely your own business. I know if they were my child they wouldn’t be able to commit vandalism and think a three year stint in the clink would mean they had paid their debt to society.

There’s no difficulty whatsoever in thinking that it’s going to cost several billions more in the coming decades to keep people out when it would be far more efficient use of public funds to provide them with a proper head-start, give them permission to work (they’ve only had that since 2018), and let them provide for themselves and their families like is expected of everyone in this country. Instead they’re holed up in accommodation I wouldn’t keep a dog in, while a small number of people are being paid enormous sums of money from the public purse to ensure they stay that way. That’s only benefitting the people providing the service, it’s of no benefit whatsoever to international protection applicants, and certainly of no benefit whatsoever to ordinary Irish citizens.

Pensions being the main component of the Welfare spend has absolutely no bearing on what could be saved by reducing our spend on IPAS.

And I’m sorry but whether you like it or not, for people that live in Ireland those scumbags are our responsibility unfortunately - they are Irish (also unfortunately), and they’re not for anyone else to be burdened by but us.

Speaking of scumbags while we’re on the topic however - where’s your animus for the scumbags here that we actually CAN deport?

The ones that stab children, rape children, murder our citizens and run criminal enterprises? Plenty of examples.

If we don’t want them in the country they can be expelled after serving their sentence. You can’t say the same for the scums born and bred in Ireland.

Pensions being the main component of the Welfare spend has absolutely no bearing on what could be saved by reducing our spend on IPAS. 

Of course it does, and I explained why it does, using your own zero-sum game logic. Like I said - I’d like to pay less taxes (that’s not going to happen), and I’d prefer if money spent on welfare was directed to public services like infrastructure, education and healthcare (that’s not going to happen either).

And I’m sorry but whether you like it or not, for people that live in Ireland those scumbags are our responsibility unfortunately - they are Irish (also unfortunately), and they’re not for anyone else to be burdened by but us. 

No need to apologise for having a different opinion to mine. By your logic I’m responsible for the scumbag who stabbed those children as he was a naturalised Irish citizen having lived in Ireland for 20 years, not for anyone else to be burdened by but ‘us’ apparently. Again, I’ll politely decline your attempt to shift responsibility for someone else’s behaviour onto me that I’m in no way responsible for. That’s why I acknowledged you’d have a point if ‘twas my own child, but since it’s not, you don’t.

Speaking of scumbags while we’re on the topic however - where’s your animus for the scumbags here that we actually CAN deport? 

The ones that stab children, rape children, murder our citizens and run criminal enterprises? Plenty of examples.

If we don’t want them in the country they can be expelled after serving their sentence. You can’t say the same for the scums born and bred in Ireland.

I’ve never made any distinction between scumbags on the basis of nationality, immigration or citizenship status. You’re hardly expecting me to start now, but it’s good to know you’re not one of those weirdos who goes trawling through other people’s posts to find anything, something they can present as evidence in support of their argument. Were you one of those people, it’d be pretty easy to find several examples of my animus for scumbags, though none as I said based upon nationality, immigration or citizenship status.

@One eyed Jack

You can’t say that nobody wants to make excuses for scumbags when that’s exactly what mrslancaster did - the scumbag wouldn’t have behaved like a scumbag if it weren’t for the behaviour of another scumbag. That’s making excuses. 

I didn’t excuse the thuggish or scummy behaviour by some protesters after that event, don’t put words in my mouth. Hundreds of citizens protested the actions of that criminal, some engaged in unlawful behaviour and were rightly arrested and charged by AGS and subsequently jailed. Anyone stabbing a group of defenceless young children is on a different level - it’s depravity imo.

I’m not putting words in your mouth -

In case it slipped your mind, that riot happened because of the attempted murder of very young children and their crèche teacher by Algerian Riad Bouchaker with a 13 inch kitchen knife.

That’s making excuses for scumbag behaviour. The riot happened because scumbags took it upon themselves to riot. Everyone else who isn’t a scumbag, didn’t riot.

Ah here, simply pointing out the facts of what occurred that day and night is not excusing anything. Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees 🙄🙄. Imigh leat…

I think that’s untrue. You’ll find one is less popular. And I think the overlap is greater than you allow, the type of person that will find welfare spending a waste will find it doubly so where international protection is concerned. But when you talk about wishing you could pay less tax and fund infrastructure instead of welfare, I think you’re missing that the public threshold for these things, while it fluctuates, will always be greater than for international protection. People know there are decent odds they’ll benefit from the welfare system at some stage. They know that funding education will come good. There’s no such confidence in the international protection system. It’s not a pay now to reap the rewards later deal. Which is why the moral argument is so central to it. But it’s hard to make the moral argument when 85% of claims are refused, and the majority of claimants have already applied for asylum in a different EU country. You might as well take the money, spend it at source, and divest yourself of the long-term costs associated with integration.

Public spending quite literally is a zero sum game - if the money is spent on x that money cannot be spent on y. Whether you’re pretending not to understand the concept of opportunity cost or not, it is irrelevant as the concept still applies.

No that’s not my logic at all - I never once said they are our personal responsibility. I said they are the responsibility of the Irish state. So no, the “naturalised” child stabber who somehow can’t speak English after 20 years in Ireland is not your responsibility, as you well know.

I don’t understand why you bother being so deliberately obtuse as a debating tactic - it does absolutely nothing to advance the discussion, it just wastes people’s time and makes you look foolish.

I think that’s untrue. You’ll find one is less popular.

I’ve already said they’re equally unpopular, depending on whom you ask.

I also know that people who object to various forms of welfare are certainly not of the opinion that they will benefit from it at some point, their argument usually consists of arguing that people who aren’t them should be deprived of welfare for one reason or another, depending upon how their own moral compass is oriented, usually by means of having had the opportunity to receive a better standard of education (evidently sadly squandered).

The only reason it’s not a pay now to reap the rewards later deal is simply because it’s not set up that way, there is no desire to encourage international protection applicants to set down roots in Ireland, our Government even going so far as to pay applicants to withdraw their application because it’s cheaper than the long-term costs associated with integration.

(Jim must have heard you 😂)

Yeah, you’ve said they’re “equally” unpopular, that doesn’t make it true. Public support for reducing welfare is far lower than public support for reducing asylum. And your comments about those that object to welfare suggest you don’t know much about those that object to welfare either. Often, they’ll be the first in line looking to top up redundancy payments with jobseekers benefit or terrified by the prospect of a gap in contributions - you mentioned State pensions, they care about that. Child benefit, they care about that. There’s always a chance you’ll need it you see, and that just doesn’t apply in the same way to the international protection system. Sweden did its damndest to set it up as long-term benefit and look where they ended up. 150,000 applicants in 2015, an initial outlay so high no long-term return would pay dividends - and scant evidence it’s even come close to trying. By its nature it’s not that. Because when it comes to immigration, you may as well only accept that come without the baggage and high initial financial outlay. So it needs the moral argument. Problem is, people don’t buy the moral argument so much anymore. At least, not when it comes with permanent residency and a life-long obligation. I could see foreign aid only satisfying the moral argument in the not so distant future.

Yeah, you’ve said they’re “equally” unpopular, that doesn’t make it true.

It was you who said you don’t think it’s true, and that I’d find one is less popular. I’ve found out already that they’re both equally unpopular depending upon whom you ask. That is true.

And my comments in relation to people’s opinions of welfare is also true - the higher their level of education, the more likely they are to argue that other people who aren’t them should be deprived of welfare. I didn’t say anything about their opinions of welfare for themselves, though I gather from their opinions that because they pay taxes, it entitles them to an opinion on where public funds should and shouldn’t be spent. They’re a fun bunch really if you ever spend any time around them.

I’m looking at Sweden in any case, and several other countries where immigrants are being used as a scapegoat for their Governments piss-poor management of the economy, and people are looking to point fingers and apportion blame, pretty much what’s happening in this discussion, but on a macro scale.

Aye, you’re still doing exactly what you did the first time, and rolling back on it now when I point out the blatantly obvious fact that the State is responsible for both groups, or - both groups are ‘the responsibility of Ireland’, in terms you might be more familiar with.