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Ireland vs Israel - To play or not to play, that is the question Read OP for Mod Warning

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,345 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Or, that country is already effectively a pariah with how it's viewed and treated by the societies in which must of us here live. And it isn't enabled with funding/intelligence/arms to carry out the subjugation by the governments of those societies.

    See the difference? But absolutely, go and advocate for those people as you feel is appropriate. I'm not going to disagree with you, or anyone else who advocates for the Sudanese, the Uyghurs or any other people who are being mistreated. I'm not for a second those aren't serious incidents or that something shouldn't be done on behalf of those people.

    But if you do that, then using your logic you should also support a call for action against Israel. If not, then you don't care about those people but are only referencing them to undermine calls for support for Palestinians. So which is it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭csirl


    As Ive said before, we should advocate for human rights being respected in all situations. As a militarial neutral country, we should not involve ourselves with any side in any conflict. When you support one side of a conflict, you only serve to expand and lengthen that conflict. I also dont agree with aligning ourselves with anyone who does not respect human rights and democracy.

    Irelands neutrality and its advocacy of peace has served us well - we should not compromise this by taking sides in far away conflicts.

    As for sport - I think it should be kept conpletely seperate from politics. Sport is great for building bridges between people. National sports bodies are not allowed be political - the likes of the IOC and FIFA have strict rules on this. And the place to raise issues is within the sports bodies established mechanisms. I do not like it when people with little or no interest in a particular sport advocate that those who participate in the sport should become political advocates.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,798 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Still no sane justified reason in 8 pages why Ireland should just punish themselves for the craic of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,345 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    As Ive said before, we should advocate for human rights being respected in all situations. As a militarial neutral country, we should not involve ourselves with any side in any conflict. When you support one side of a conflict, you only serve to expand and lengthen that conflict. I also dont agree with aligning ourselves with anyone who does not respect human rights and democracy.

    I disagree. We've our own record of violence at the hands of a powerful state and we were happy to recieve advocacy and indeed support from whoever offered it to us.

    Irelands neutrality and its advocacy of peace has served us well - we should not compromise this by taking sides in far away conflicts.

    Surely calling for non-military action against a genocidal state is the ultimate promotion of peace?

    As for sport - I think it should be kept conpletely seperate from politics. Sport is great for building bridges between people. National sports bodies are not allowed be political - the likes of the IOC and FIFA have strict rules on this. And the place to raise issues is within the sports bodies established mechanisms. I do not like it when people with little or no interest in a particular sport advocate that those who participate in the sport should become political advocates.

    This point is worthy of a thread in its own right. Sport and politics have long been intensely intertwined. Ive already given examples of the use of the poppy in UK sport, the military in US sport, particularly the NFL. Contests between countries which were fomerly or are currently at political loggerheads (think of the emption around some Irish fixtures with England for example) And in fact soccer, has a long history of tribalism and aggressive/defensive behaviors amongst some fan bases (Firms/Ultras etc)

    And I dont know if you are speaking about me, or anyone else in particular talking about (those with little or no interest in sport) but I can assure you that is not the case. Some of my fondest childhood memories are around sport events and I have vivid memories of experiencing the joy of Houghton v England in 88, or McLoughlin v Northern Ireland in 94 and many more. One of the people advocating for Palestine on this thread is a regular fan at Landsowne for Irish matches so I reject the premise of that point. We saw plenty people talk about sport for seemingly the first time when they were saying Macabi Tel Aviv fans should be allowed to Birmingham last Autumn.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,345 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    There's been posts detailing

    • Refusal to play Russia lead to their banning
    • Evidence that an Israeli PM believed a ban on Israeli soccer teams could have the most effect on the country when it was mooted in 2015
    • A suggestion to listen to Eamon Dunphy who expressed regret for having traveled to Chile to play them on an Irish team and who feels the game should not go ahead.
    • Evidence that the head of FIFA and UEFA have been reported to the ICC because of them not acting to hold Israel to account for what it's team's have done with respect to Palestinian lands
    • It is a fact the FAI already called for UEFA to act against Israel.

    And yet you see all of this and claim there is no justified reason?

    If Benjamin Netanyahu joined boards and posted here saying he hoped the agame would go ahead so that there wouldn't be risk of talk of a ban because it would impact the country's sentiment towards their actions, I think you'd still post saying the game should go ahead claiming there was no argument against that.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    Given that the perpetrators of said genocide were severely dealt with over 80 years ago, sure, I'm ok with Germany being involved in world sport. They were punished and paid the price then allowed back in.

    Israel's Genocide is only two years old and is still ongoing. Are you ok with that?

    And are you OK with Israel murdering nearly 1000 children who didn't even reach their first birthday?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭csirl


    Sports bodies are generalky run on a rules based system. If the FAI (which is a members organisation) believe another FIFA member has broken FIFA rules, its a matter for them to raise it via the mechanisms within their sport. However, any complaint should be based on evidence of rules being broken (as opposed to political views) and the FAI needs to accept and respect the outcome of any process.

    Throwing toys out of the pram and refusing to play scheduled fixtures is not the way to go.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    The FAI is not refusing to play.

    They raised Israel breaking the FIFA rules last year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭csirl


    Fair enough.

    But some individuals on this thread and elsewhere are advocating not playing regardless.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    I agree that Ireland should play the scheduled matches though I don't believe they should have too - Israel should have been banned. Maybe they will.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Dick phelan


    People saying Russia was kicked out, they weren't really what happened was everyone in their group refused to play them. That won't happen in this case. All that will happen is we hand 6 points to Israel, risk further sanctions from Uefa and at a time when we really need the money for Irish football. Also do we really want to be pissing them off when we are co hosting the next Euros.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Patrick2010




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,345 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    That's a cop out. Particularly in the case of the Israel/Palestine topic suggesting that people/a group should follow the rule of law before acting on it is insulting to the memory of all who have died and suffered in the conflict.

    And that withstanding, rules have been used by persecutors throughout history to invalidate the actions of those who opposed them. However valid the opposition was. And with respect to sports bodies being run on rules based systems (Boxing would like a word!) Gianni Infantino got involved in 2015 to prevent a vote on the banning of Israel from international competition and as stated earlier, UEFA have not followed their own rules in acting against Israel for allowing clubs to operate from what are stolen lands.

    So I disagree entirely with the argument that there are rules in place to handle this and Ireland (or anyone else) should not act for that reason.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,345 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Not exactly. It started with Poland refusing to play them in a play off game and the two possible opponents who they might meet after that game, Sweden and Czech Republic, also saying that if they were asked to play them, they would refuse.

    So it started with a single team first saying they would not play them. Ireland could be that first team. Would others follow? Possibly. Probably not in the case of Austria, possibly not in the the case of Kosovo. But is doing the right thing dependent on whether you are doing it alone or with support?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,345 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    They're talking about playing them in cricket, in 2024.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭csirl


    Ireland regularly plays in tournamentd which include Afghanistan. There's one on right now- T20 World Cup.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,405 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    This issue is a strange one. I mean no one I know cares about Palestine.

    Is it really that big a story in Ireland ??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,345 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Don't know what part of the country you live in but I'm pretty sure that every city in Ireland has had several marches or gatherings in support of Palestine over the last couple of years and every large town has also had at least one at some point also.

    I find it hard to believe no one you know cares about it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,405 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    To be honest I find that war a bit boring as well.

    Its a strange one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,345 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    To be honest I find that war a bit boring as well.

    Isn't that interesting. Thanks for telling us.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭Benedict XVI


    I'm not sure how much support there is across the board for the Palestinian cause, but there is a very vocal support from those on the left.

    There is also support from those of a nationalist tint in the south and especially in the north.

    I think they see similarities between what the south went through and what the north is going through from being occupied.

    My problem with that is that it just seems to be a default position.

    As in "The brits occupied/occupy us, so we support you because the Israelis occupy you"

    It's without any regard for what a Palestinian state would look like and what life would be like for normal Palestinian people under a state run by Hamas or some other Iranian proxy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    I think it's very simple - Israel has killed at least 50,000 women and children in the last 2 years. Then there's thousands of medics, journalists and humanitarian aid workers.

    That is what drives most people to protest against the Genocidal State. This is try to ensure that "never again" is not forgotten. Which makes the fact that it is Israel who is repeating history and that is utterly shocking.

    FIFA and UEFA have a lot to answer for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,283 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    for every one these marchers, there are so so many more who couldn’t give a fiddlers, though; and also, quite a percentage of the actual marchers don’t really care either.

    Marches years and years ago used to actually mean something.. since social media and attention-likes, marches are way more performative now. They’re utterly diluted. Most them just people being absolute pests..

    Said it before, and has been said here.. in Ireland this “compassion” for Arabs in Gaza is way more to do with sticking it to England/Britain than anything else. The tiresome “we were occupied for 800 years” nonsense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,345 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    for every one these marchers, there are so so many more who couldn’t give a fiddlers, though; and also, quite a percentage of the actual marchers don’t really care either.

    Says who?

    What evidence have you to support this view?

    But it's interesting to see you think Ireland being occupied for 800 years is merely "tiresome" rather than something that dramatically impacted the country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,345 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Deleted. Misleading

    Post edited by Tell me how on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,283 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I never said Ireland being occupied for 800 years was tiresome..it’s pretty much the only reason Irish people here have this silly obsession with Gaza. It’s all they have, and it completely relates to sticking it to England..

    Anyway, regarding the actual thread. We will play, should play, and instead of hijacking it to further slate Israel (by yet again taking sides), we should use it to build bridges, engage and try to repair relations with Israel; which will go a lot longer a way to possibly even help the situation in Gaza…

    You’d really wonder do some these marchers care about actual peace and resolution, or are they happy to want the conflict to continue, so they can keep up the performative protesting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 342 ✭✭Lucien_Sarti


    I mean no one I know cares about Palestine.

    Imagine posting that you couldn’t give two **** about 600,000 Arabs being slaughtered live on high definition streaming broadcasts - in order to support continuing US/UK/G/F imperial domination of the Arab world. Parallel universe stuff.


    Announcing that you only seem to know Nazis & imperial supporting fascists!
    What a complete reveal. Jaysus.
    No wonder such people can’t understand why anyone cares about Palestine.

    ————————-;

    That ANY football association in Europe (even one) is even “considering” playing this terrorist, savage entity shows how removed from humanity & sanity this whole question even is!!

    James Connolly, The Irish Flag (1916)
    Common Prosperity, China (2021)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Patrick2010




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,345 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    You’d really wonder do some these marchers care about actual peace and resolution, or are they happy to want the conflict to continue, so they can keep up the performative protesting.

    I think this is more projection again. If you genuinely think anyone protesting in this way is only being performative, you're telling us that there's nothing that would motivate you to try to draw attention to a topic and call for change with respect to it that would involve you going out on the street to advocate for that.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,345 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Here's another example of the reality that sports and politics do overlap.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2026/feb/20/werder-bremen-cancel-us-trip-minnesota-ice

    However, the Bundesliga club decided to cancel the visit amid growing concerns about the actions of ICE, after two US citizens were shot dead by federal agents in Minnesota last month.

    “It is correct that we cancelled a planned trip to Minnesota in the United States. There were sporting, economic and political reasons for this,” a Werder Bremen spokesperson said.

    “Playing in a city where there is unrest and people have been shot does not fit with our values. Furthermore, it was unclear to us which players would be able to enter the USA at all due to the stricter entry requirements.”

    This story aside, I'm pretty sure this World Cup this summer will be one of the most political we've ever seen.

    And its Trump and to a lesser degree, Infantino who will be the cause of making it like this.



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