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Heineken Cutting Jobs Due To Lower Demand For Beer

2

Comments

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,589 Mod ✭✭✭✭squonk


    Agreed. Unfortunately the approach taken by the brewers is to continue price hikes annually as usual and the the vintners to lobby the government to implement MUP and ridiculous time limits on off licenses. When consumers run out of disposable income to spend of their products and services it’s always someone else’s fault. I don’t imagine for a moment that the likes of Heineken and Diageo are on the brink of collapse so it’s more about profit and shareholder return than any nod to the consumer. They simply are not interested in price stability or reduction. You only have to look at the cost of an alcohol free variety of any product. You’re not making a saving despite the product not attracting excise duty etc. With Economies of scale it has to be costing these big guys less than a euro to produce a keg. Maybe someone in the know will clarify this. Skipping a price increase for a year or two isn’t going to adversely affect them. Unfortunately that idea doesn’t suit anyone in the chain. Less dividend for shareholders, less profit for the brewers and no convenient excuse or fall guy for the vintners hiking their prices.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 12,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    I didn't do LC economics, but what's your explanation for Heineken saying that of all their territories in western Europe, Ireland (with Portugal) is where they're making more money, year-on-year? Surely the ever-increasing amount that Heineken charges for beer sold in Irish pubs is completely justifiable when the figures show Irish customers are willing to keep paying it? Have I got my economics wrong here?



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 12,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    With Economies of scale it has to be costing these big guys less than a euro to produce a keg.

    When discussing the economics of beer I think it's important to bear in mind that the cost of manufacture and distribution of the product has very very little impact on the retail price. And it becomes less and less relevant the bigger the brewery gets. For the likes of Heineken and Diageo, brand equity is everything. They have the data which shows a significant number of customers will not drink Beamish or Tuborg, say, because they see it as cheap and therefore bad. Heineken Pilsner and Guinness, however, have marketing which shows them as premium and image-enhancing, and therefore worth the extra money charged. Their sales figures show that, in Ireland at least, this strategy works. That all four beers cost the same pittance to produce is immaterial, as is whether they contain alcohol or not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,169 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Heineken’s own numbers don’t contradict basic LC economics here, if anything, they underline the point that this is a margin‑defence exercise in a weakening market, not proof that price hikes are painless or sustainable.

    I'd argue that your point on Heineken's margin in Ireland is mixing up “we’re making more profit in Ireland” with “demand is grand, keep hiking away.” Those are not the same thing.

    A company can make more money in a territory while selling less beer overall.
    Charging more per pint to those who still go out.
    Cutting jobs and capacity to squeeze extra margin out of a shrinking or stagnant volume base.
    That is exactly what Heineken is doing.
    Thousands of job cuts, plant rationalisation, “productivity” drives, all dressed up in corporate‑speak, but fundamentally an admission that volumes and growth aren’t what they’d like them to be.
    You do not take a chainsaw to headcount and capacity if all that’s happening is a happy, elastic customer base paying higher prices with no pushback.
    So yes, the people who still walk through the pub door and still order Heineken are “willing to pay” those prices, for now.
    That doesn’t mean there’s no substitution happening.
    It just means you’re only looking at the people who haven’t substituted yet.

    The substitution the LC textbook talks about isn’t always dramatic or visible in any one night. It can be things such as
    One less night out this month, then that becomes normal.
    One round fewer each visit.
    Quietly switching to drinking at home where the same money buys a full weekend instead of two pints and a packet of crisps.
    Younger cohorts never forming the same pub habit at all because the value proposition is gone.
    All of that is consistent with Heineken reporting “better” profit numbers from Ireland.
    Fewer, more affluent or more price‑insensitive punters in pubs, higher unit prices, the company stripping out costs in the background.
    Great for the quarterly slide deck.
    Not so great for the long‑term health of the pub trade or for anyone on the margin who has effectively been priced out of the social space.

    The other sleight of hand is treating a short‑term uptick in profit as some kind of referendum on whether the strategy is “justifiable.” LC economics distinguishes very clearly between short‑run and long‑run.
    In the short run, demand for a “night out” is relatively sticky.
    People absorb price hikes because they don’t want to give up the ritual, they cut back elsewhere first, or they treat it as a last luxury.
    In the long run, habits change.
    Once people adjust, move socialising home, shift to cheaper options, get used to not going out the demand curve itself shifts left.
    The pub stops being the default and becomes an occasional treat, if that.

    That “coffin hammered shut” line about the Irish pub as a social hub isn’t melodrama, it’s describing that long‑run shift.
    Rising input costs, rent, mortgages, energy, everything creeping up and on top of that, repeated price hikes at the tap.
    The outcome is pretty simple: the pub becomes a venue for the shrinking slice of people who can still shrug at €7–€8 pints, and everyone else either trades down or drops out.
    From the firm’s perspective, this can still look “successful” for quite a while.
    High prices per pint.
    Decent reported profit in a high‑price market like Ireland.
    Costs chopped aggressively so even flat or drifting volumes can be made to look respectable on an earnings call.

    From the perspective of basic demand theory, though, it’s exactly what you’d expect when a firm with pricing power leans hard on it in a cost‑of‑living crisis.
    Quantity demanded falls on the margin, substitution happens, and you start hollowing out the broad middle of your customer base.
    So no, you don’t have your economics wrong by pointing out that endless price rises collide with substitution.
    The mistake is assuming “profits up in Ireland” means demand hasn’t budged and everyone’s happy to pay.

    What it really shows is that Heineken is very good at extracting more from the people still left in the pub, while the people who’ve been priced out simply vanish from the numbers and from the barstools.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,589 Mod ✭✭✭✭squonk


    Great post. It’s hardly a business model to breed sustainability though. I do feel they’re betting the farm on alcohol free now and using it to offset the losses on the alcoholic side. We’re facing health warnings on bottles/cans in the coming years. After tobacco, Alcohol is becoming the new persona non grata now and milking your remaining customers doesn’t seem sound, especially when consumers have choice now in regards to comfy homes with home beer fridges or keg machines. For everyone else, making simmering that’s a bit if a small Luxury now into something that will turn more into an occasional treat or special occasion thing isn’t very sound. Driving your pub customers away isn’t a long term strategy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,169 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Thank you, I didn't want it to come off as being too bookish or as a veritable essay.
    I agree with you in that the Breweries are trying to pivot to 0.0 and other soft alternatives in the face of a growing legislative burden.
    That they are doing so by a combination of squeezing a reducing customer base without taking into account the lessons apparent in the last serious effort to enforce prohibition with the US's 18th amendment (and its revocation).

    I don't think that there will be much growth in a market for Malted soft drinks here in Ireland ;) or in those parts of the EU that don't host US bases.
    The push for 0.0 is part of that recognition IMO, but?
    When people already balk at the price of popular soft drinks in Pubs, Venues & Restuarants?
    The notion that we will be happy enough to pay more for 0.0 than said soft drinks, or indeed the equivalent with alcohol price is absolutely bat shít.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 12,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    I think the new Guinness 0.0 TV ad speaks to the last point. It seems to be pitched at men who do not want to be seen without a pint, but also don't want to drink. If there's a real target audience for that, and I'd be reasonably sure there is, it's guys who absolutely will pay full whack for a pint of non-alcoholic stout rather than risk looking emasculated with a Coke.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,169 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Its certainly a market segment that the breweries hope exists.
    That said?
    When your potential customer base, is, at least by Heineken's research more concerned with carb count than alcohol %?
    That hope falls apart when a pint of non alcoholic beer averages 25grams + of carbs.
    Also, noone under 60 feels emasculated by drinking a coke.
    The cohort of drinkers who need to appear to be drinking a beer?
    Well the same research that indicates weight loss and healthy living are the reasons behind declining beer sales, would also make that a much reduced cohort.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,329 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I drink Guinness OO if I have to drive because it tastes good and I hate Coke.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,329 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Just back to Heineken, I often get the duty free on the ferries.

    It's 330ml cans brewed in Holland and 5%.

    It's a nice beer and I like it.

    Also if I'm out and about in Ireland and a pub has a good pint of Heineken I find it acceptable.

    I'll try anything else too but don't have a problem with Heineken.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,169 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Similar reasons to myself drinking a 0 if I choose one.
    Couldn't care less wtether its a coke, a rock shandy, a Lager, or a 0.0, its for me not for appearances.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 12,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    I did a survey for Heineken a couple of years ago and they asked if, when drinking non-alcoholic beer, I would be OK if the glass had non-alcoholic branding on it. It's clearly a concern, though maybe not for us sturdy-ego'd inhabitants of the Boards booze forum.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,389 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Fcuk them. They were at the forefront pushing this 00 bollix. Get what you deserve.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    What 0.0 bollix?

    I was out last night to see a friend's gig and didn't fancy getting the bus in that weather so drove and enjoyed 4 pints of Heineken 0.0 then hopped back in the car and drove home, ideal for it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,389 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    You paid 25 quid for 2 litres of fizzy piss.

    Their alcoholic beer tastes bad enough as it is but at least you get a buzz for your money.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    No I paid €24 for 2.3 litres of a non alcoholic beer that tastes fine with a seat in a nice warm pub (on a horrendous night) with 3 hours of live music and didn't have to worry about the cost of a taxi home.

    That's good value in my book.

    It was €4 for a 200ml bottle of coke, I'm happy with the choice that I made.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭Benedict XVI


    It's not always the case that you have to reduce the price if demand is going down, to increase demand as it were.

    There are cases where increasing the price may work.

    It's an goods being "price inelastic". Meaning that the demand doesn't change much if the price changes.

    Beer is a good example of this, generally people will still consume it even if the price continues to rise.

    If you are not losing much in sales volumes with the higher price then it's working.

    Heineken have decided that they can increase the price of a product and still maintain enough sales of that product for it to be profitable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,133 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    I actually find Heineken 0.0 indistinguishable taste-wise from normal Heineken.

    Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,329 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    It's just another choice for drinkers.

    Pubs are full of alcoholic drinks if that's what you want.

    In the supermarkets the 00 isn't even in the same section as alcohol so it's easily avoided.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    That's the whole point of them, if it tasted wildly different then you wouldn't get people like me choosing a 0.0 product when not wanting to have alcohol but still wanting to go out.

    There is a subtle difference but not that much that it's a bad alternative, certainly better than a 200ml bottle of coke/7up.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭Marty Bird


    😂you’d want to have serious word with yourself drinking that at those prices.

    🌞6.02kWp⚡️3.01kWp South/East⚡️3.01kWp West



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭Marty Bird


    I find non alcoholic pints the strangest choice people make, maybe if they cost a third of the price of the real pint I would kind of understand. 🤷‍♂️

    🌞6.02kWp⚡️3.01kWp South/East⚡️3.01kWp West



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,138 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    If you're out having "bar snack" type food but can't \ don't drink, I can see the non alcoholic beers working with wings, pizza, burgers, nachos etc
    Might be an angle that could be promoted by the likes of Heineken.

    Or maybe even seafood, chowder, fish and chips etc and a non alcoholic stout or ale could work.

    Non alcoholic wine still has a way to go, and coke \ fruit juice etc one is ok but can't drink a lot.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,539 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    Its a shite beer but times are changing. I talk to people in their 20s now, they don't really drink, more into smoking weed and hard drugs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,675 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 12,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    Some people drink beer for its flavour rather than its alcohol content. For me, non-alcoholic beer didn't make sense when none of it tasted like real beer, but the tech has moved on, and brewers have finally twigged that dark styles work better in non-alcoholic form than pale ones. The Guinness and Dundalk Bay non-alcoholic stouts are not perfect substitutes, but they're close enough to the real thing to have a use case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭techman1


    you are not losing much in sales volumes with the higher price then it's working.

    Heineken have decided that they can increase the price of a product and still maintain enough sales of that product for it to be profitable.

    Be interesting to find out are Heineken increasing prices for all European countries or just Ireland. If it is just Ireland then there is something wrong with the Irish market that it is prepared to accept it ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭Marty Bird


    Tea/Coffee, Still/sparking water or a bottle of pop if that’s your taste.

    🌞6.02kWp⚡️3.01kWp South/East⚡️3.01kWp West



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    So what go out and sit in the pub for hours drinking pints of water?

    Many enjoy the taste of a beer, certainly over paying €4 for a 200ml bottle of coke.

    €24 for 4 pints in a nice environment, listening to live music for 3 hours and chatting away with mates and I could get in my car and drive home afterwards. How is that not decent value?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭Marty Bird


    I suppose if I’m with my mates and there’s music I like and I don’t want to drink, myself I’d have a coffee and maybe a water or nothing if I was driving.

    It’s like people feel uncomfortable if they don’t have drink in front of them when in a pub setting. Thankfully I haven’t had that feeling.

    🌞6.02kWp⚡️3.01kWp South/East⚡️3.01kWp West



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