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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    The only reason we are goosed at 13 is because we won’t back someone like Osborne at 13 like we should be doing.


    Needs to be made clear, any issue we have in this department is of our own making before we try make excuses.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,315 ✭✭✭✭phog


    The year after Sexton retired Ireland won the 6Ns. The outhalf that played then is still available.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Really? You should have mentioned this at some point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,785 ✭✭✭50HX




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    When he’s played under Farrell he’s mostly played 15 or 13.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,012 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Osborne is well capable of playing either centre position, I think. He was nominated for European Player of the year as a 21 year old off the back of playing inside centre in the absence of Henshaw. But he also fills in well at 13 when Ringrose is unavailable. Thought he was excellent in the URC QF and SF last season playing outside centre.

    His biggest problem is his versatility. He's well capable of playing anywhere from 11-15. His kicking and fielding also make him a decent fullback. I'd love to see him nail a starting spot at centre though. He's a big lad who can carry powerfully into contact, but also get his hands free to offload. His similar to McCloskey in that regard, although the latter definitely gets more metres in contact. Osborne has a good passing and kicking game and could be the happy medium between that front up basher and pivot that Leinster/Ireland desperately require.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,785 ✭✭✭50HX


    He's not good enough to play either at test level imo.

    When did he play centre more than once?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    That attitude is exactly why we end up with an old out of form player continuing to play…

    He’s clearly shown he’s good enough, but like with most players we give them little opertunity to steak a claim.

    He played there for the Lions and Ireland against Georgia.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,785 ✭✭✭50HX


    Eh easy tiger...i never said he wasnt good enough to play.

    I said he's not a test level 13 or 15 (stop gap at best) for me.

    He's more likely a 12 & i'd guess he'd make a very good one.

    His versatility is ultimately his downfall re nailing down a position

    Its clear Farrell doesnt see him as a 13...i put zero stock in a game v Georgia & a 5 nations pacifically xv on the Lions tour



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    Which has been acknowledged plenty of times.

    However, that same player has completely stalled in his development since and, for two years in a row, has managed to completely drop his from in the important months leading to the Six Nations.

    Same conversations over and over and over again.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,791 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Of all the criticisms that have been levelled at Farrell these last five years, “not giving Jamie Osborne enough opportunities” might be the most outlandish yet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98



    It’s not just about Osborne, it’s about multiple positions…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,758 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    You said it right there. His versatility is costing him big. Once you get into that position it's highly likely you'll never have a starting gig, unless you are lucky enough to replace someone who gets a bad injury and allows you the time to win the starting gig.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,413 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Capped players from JWC squads since 2019

    2019 - Craig Casey, Tom Ahern, Tom Clarkson, Ryan Baird, Michael Milne

    2020 - Jack Crowley

    2021 - Jack Boyle, Jamie Osborne

    2022 - Sam Prendergast

    2023 - Gus McCarthy, Paddy McCarthy, Sam Prendergast, Hugh Gavin

    I don't think anyone else from the 2019 squad is going to be capped at this stage, although the likes of John Hodnett and David McCann maybe have merited a look, but I can't see it happening now.

    The 2021 squad is interesting, Cathal Forde, Jude Postlethwaite, Nathan Doak, Alex Kendellan, Sam Illo, Alex Sororka and Darragh Murray all have test potential.

    With regards to the 2022 squad I think James McNabney has a pretty good chance of a few caps, he was in the training squad in the summer before doing his ACL and for 2023 Brian Gleeson is bound to be capped.

    I actually think a few of the 2024 squad have a chance, guys like Jack Murphy, definitely Bryn Ward and Evan O'Connell all have a chance, particularly Ward.

    Not sure about the 2025 squad in fairness.

    All the above has been done in 20 minutes so there may be inaccuracies, but anyway we have been capping players and there are more to come. Maybe Farrell does need to be a bit braver, but the A performance last night won't encourage to be less conservative with his selections, if he even is in the first place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,599 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    I'd say our senior performance have good correlation to our 20s, no? I am sure you could fit a moving window. Finishing third in a 6 nations isn't that unexpected like. We might win a championship once or twice a decade if we are performing well but we aren't France or England.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,588 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Stats make for interesting reading, and actually reassuring if you ignore the result. 100% scrum (I thought we lost one), 94% lineout, fairly equal on turnovers, only 6 penalties and no cards. Not bad for those of us who worried most about set piece and discipline, though discipline might have gone too far the other way. Big issue is intensity in the physical stakes and the lack of any kind of attacking creativity and dynamism. When we were rocking that was the big difference. Then fall off in the ball skills is really apparent, is this Nienbar's legacy at Leinster or something else?

    https://www.rugbypass.com/live/france-vs-ireland/stats/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,766 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    Yeah, intensity and skills were what jumped out at me watching live. Skills-level dropping can happen a team on a bad day… collective malaise, pressure etc…. (though I do suspect we're not very well coached at the moment, will wait til the end of the tournament to fully draw conclusions on that)… but the lack of intensity was unforgivable, especially in that first half. So passive in our tackling. We should have been absolutely rabid away from home in the first match of a Six Nations. It was like the collective mindset was several notches down from where it needed to be. Dunno is that on the players or the coaches.

    Things improved generally in the second half, maybe when the subs came on and we started running it a bit more, but the French had the foot off the accelerator and were comfortable enough really, and even then we only drew the second half.

    Set-piece was a big plus, a lot of doom and gloom on here about the likes of Loughman and Milne, beforehand so credit where it's due. Clarkson put in a good shift also.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,064 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Cullen has hampered his development massively. Should've been starting last season, but Jordie was here, so fair enough. Comtinuing to beat the dead horse of Henshaw and an out of form Ringrose has been costly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,837 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    picking foreign based players hasnt worked out well for wales or australia for one, scotland too i would argue. the only team that i would say it works well for is south africa and even they are looking to pull players back to the urc to some extent. it might have a short term gain as it did with aus but it would likely kill the game in the long run



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,837 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    its only the same conversation because others keep saying there was nothing after sexton in the 10 jersey

    and maybe his drop in form (which is highly, highly exaggerated but whatever) had something to do with being parachuted out of the team at a time he was playing relatively well……



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,678 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    It was actually the pitches in Limerick and Perpignan that the stars of the future got crucified on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Conpletely agree with this. Set piece and discipline were the big worries going into this and they went well here.

    It’s almost like we solve one thing but something else goes awry.

    The stats that ended up defining the game…

    • Ireland won 4 contestables vs France’s 15
    • Dominant tackles: 8 vs 18
    • Tackles Missed: 35 vs 21
    • Line breaks: 5 vs 13
    • Post Contact Metres: 265m vs 392m
    • Offloads: 6 vs 19


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 501 ✭✭✭thamus doku


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124216548#Comment_124216548

    we are limited to 4 provinces and unless the IRFU are going to buy London Irish and enter them into the URC or English premiership we need to think outside the box.
    Obviously buying London Irish as a 5 th club would solve a lot of our problems, but if the IRFU can’t afford this or just don’t want to do this, then we have to be open to letting young talent play abroad and not shutting the door in their face.

    all I am saying is the young talent coming through are not all getting game time and many are simply not progressing because of it. I don’t think Leinster players should be forced to move within Ireland, that just allows the other 3 provinces off the hook when it comes to producing their own talent.

    All I am saying is either the IRFU buy at least 1 but if possible two more clubs, one in England and one in France, or we need to allow young players move.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,315 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Could the fear of giving away penalties/cards be one of the reasons why our intensity was lower that we'd have expected. Was there an over emphasis on discipline.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 818 ✭✭✭MangleBadger


    I think the scrum stats while good have an asterisk against them.
    Everybody was nervous we would get crucified after the SA debacle and with the injuries. France knew this and selected a lightweight mobile pack of backrows. They made no effort to target our scrum. They were content to destroy us in the loose.
    night have been a different story if they had different tactics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,012 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Maybe. But you take your wins where you can get them. Scrum went about as well as we could have hoped for regardless of whether France targeted it or not.

    I agree with you that we were hurt elsewhere other than the scrum. Porter/Paddy McCarthy or Furlong would have won far more contacts on both sides of the ball. We missed a lot of physicality, especially from first up contacts which are mostly taken by the front 5. Loughman and Clarkson did as best they could, but there's still a sizeable downwards step from our best to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Seems to me looking at it as an all or nothing thing is too black and white. It'd be within the IRFU's power to formulate their own nuanced policy. They could consider for selection players playing for non-Irish URC teams but not players playing in the Top 14 or Premiership, for example. Basically, not pick players playing in leagues that have teams that could poach Ireland's top players.

    What threat do Wales or Italy or SA or the English Championship teams pose to the Provinces in terms of buying in Ireland's most important players?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭almostover


    Italy's scrum looked really powerful against Scotland yesterday too. A bigger challenge may lie ahead next weekend



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,758 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    As regards going abroad, Harry Byrne went to Bristol last year and it did him a world of good.

    Loaning players out to teams abroad for a year might be the way to go as regards development.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,012 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Byrne has come back a more confident player and seems to have put on some size as well. Not convinced it's done much for his actual game though. It's notable how much better in attack Leinster look when Prendergast is at 10. It's not just that the latter has a broader passing range and can get the ball out to backs in more threatening positions quickly. We look more threatening in closer quarters as well.

    Byrne actually takes too much on himself. He carries into contact a lot when a pass would be the better option. Prendergast is carrying more to the line also, but releasing the ball to a player on his shoulder to make a better carry.



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