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Orange is the new Burke

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Would it then be down to the actual courts he and his family have been hectoring daily which would make a final call on his unfair dismissal claim against WHS

    It was always going to be up to the courts to decide ultimately.

    Whatever the appeals panel decide, it is purely and solely a recommendation. They cannot compel the school or BOM to do anything. As far as the school is concerned, Burke is a former employee whatever comes out of the appeal if anything.

    What is happening in reality is, Burke has to request the review and then he more or less immediately applies for an injunction against his own requested review. It's absolute madness and a complete disregard for process.

    The school has a few options in reality, they could apply for their own injunction against Burke lodging anymore requests for a DAP.

    They could simply ignore him and drag it out for even more years, leaving Burke in prison.

    They could grant his request and the DAP immediately refuse to conduct a review.

    What they shouldn't do is what they have done, because the HC have been an absolute disgrace in the rope they have handed Burke, I see no reason to believe they won't keep doing it.

    Edit:

    Best case scenario is the DAP refuse a review, he comes off the cowardly Departments payroll, he arrives at the school, gets arrested and prosecuted for criminal trespass.

    The rest of his family that hamper criminal court proceedings get arrested, charged and prosecuted.

    The school will be firmly off the hook for at least a decent period, because the WRC won't entertain the nonsense as evidenced before.

    Then it will off to the Labour court I imagine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭adaminho


    Adjourned till the 20th. Two members resigned an the other has been deemed by Enoch to be biased.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 786 ✭✭✭feelings


    Not unexpected. A lot of time and energy is being taken up by this circus, which seems intentional. Exhausting stuff for that panel, I'm tired even reading about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,408 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Is it possible to volunteer for the panel? :D



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,954 ✭✭✭BK5


    Isn't it amazing how we all these rules have to be followed while scumbags like Enoch Burke don't have to follow any?

    Surely there is some bylaw or regulation like "your just taking the piss or out to waste time clause" which negates your stance and your case gets thrown out?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭hoodie6029


    Ironically, they’d spend year challenging that law if it came in too

    This is water. Inspiring speech by David Foster Wallace https://youtu.be/DCbGM4mqEVw?si=GS5uDvegp6Er1EOG



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,750 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    Biased? Maybe don't make a holy show of yourself, crave attention and have your family not kick up a fuss about ANYTHING. That might help things a tad.

    Common sense, really isn't common.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,107 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    That's the part that hurts my brain the most. The gimlet eye and endless obstruction, meanwhile blatantly not following a word of the law themselves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭Mal-Adjusted


    You sort of her the feeling that the DAP members were kinda gombeens who didn't take Enoch all that seriously. The new panel, assuming one is formed, need to be squeaky clean throughout the entire process because of Enoch finds a "t" that isn't crossed, he'll litigate all over the place and scream bloody murder while he's at it.

    I'd be interested in knowing the ins and outs of how the whole appeal is conducted. Is it like a trial? He mentions not bieng able to cross-examine witnesses. The fact that he can ask questions of the panel is bizarre. He's basically asking a panel member what they would do if a Principal asked them to use a certain pronoun of a student? And if the answer doesn't confirm to his ultra religious leanings, he calls bias and litigates. He's basically given himself a veto over who gets to be on the DAP. The whole thing is ridiculous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,282 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    And if the answer doesn't confirm to his ultra religious leanings, he calls bias and litigates. He's basically given himself a veto over who gets to be on the DAP. The whole thing is ridiculous.

    Well this is it. Short of having it composed of members of his own family, there is unlikely to be any appeal panel acceptable to Burke. He should not be entertained by the High Court in making a mockery of the process in this way.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,282 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    An increased chance of release, eh? Is it just that they are too thick to realise that Burke can choose to be released at any time?

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,341 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Apparently he went after the principal the last time she was called as a a witness, No thinking he had any chance of a reconciliation with her at any societal level after that. One thing to be thankful on the panel hearings, the support crew cant be there to insult and badger the panel's intelligence. His behaviour is probably allowable as he is working as his own defence agent. It more that he's playing to a different audience so he doesn't give a fig about what humans think of him and his family.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭Westernview


    The same morons would demand justice from the courts if they were victims of a crime. But until that happens they just rubbish the legal system and judges to fit in with their agenda.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,090 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    Given the latest announcement by the dept of education on the use of pronouns they/them etc not being legally binding, it surely has strengthened Burks belief that his rights were being infringed by the school and head teacher at the beginning of this saga. He has surely been emboldened by this announcement and it may well have swayed the panel members into making their decision into resigning. It seems that the legal system itself has rolled itself into knots on this issue and that the only way out of it now is for it to be decided in the courts, rather than by a toothless panel anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,341 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    There's a Virgin Media news report on F/B that, after he heard that two members of the panel had resigned, he…is seeking permission to file a late appeal against an order preventing him from trespassing at Wilson’s Hospital School. The High Court was told today that two members of the disciplinary appeals panel examining his dismissal have resigned.

    Please excuse the different format. I copied and pasted the Virgin Media report script.

    In other related Burke family business, a person identifying as Mike Garde who admins what they describe as the Burke Family group on F/B has had access to the groups page restricted by F/B on the basis of excessive commentating and spamming on F/B. I weep for them…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭BP_RS3813


    Jesus f*cking Christ.

    Had a look at it there now - the nutjobs really walk among us!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,012 ✭✭✭Dublin Calling




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,911 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    The 2 members resigned on legal advice;

    "The High Court was informed that Department of Education nominee Seán Ó Longáin and Jack Cleary, child protection advisor with the Joint Managerial Body for Voluntary Secondary Schools, have stepped down on legal advice. Association of Secondary Teachers, Ireland representative, Geraldine O’Brien, remains on the panel."

    From Irelandlive



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Given the latest announcement by the dept of education on the use of pronouns they/them etc not being legally binding

    The school never consulted the Dept. because they have no clear guidelines.

    When a different student was transitioning in 2021, the principal consulted with other schools, relevant bodies and the advice was framed around GDRP and Equality legislation.

    Burke didn't have any issue at the time because his family were knee deep in Covid lunacy.

    Whatever the Dept. said or haven't said since is moot.

    He has surely been emboldened by this announcement and it may well have swayed the panel members into making their decision into resigning.

    I imagine the panel members had to be convinced to join the panel with the proviso if Burke and Cult kick off they are out the gap.

    Either way, no one was forcing Burke to accept anything. He didn't teach the student, who was soon to leave the school anyway.

    Burke was fired because he aggressively attacked his boss at a public function which included upsetting people who were there including several children who left. Even before then he was becoming more erratic.

    The reality is he is no longer employee of the school, he is clinging on to his pay packet because he is being inexplicably entertained by certain High Court judges and a department hiding behind their cowardice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,877 ✭✭✭Hoboo


    So the school never consulted the department who oversees them because they didn’t have a policy. Never consulted. Didn’t even pick up the phone according to you. But the principal (not the board, just one person) consulted “other bodies”, unnamed of course, and then took advice from said unnamed person or group to form a framework around “GDPR”……

    Can you share a link to something referring to what you claim, none of that makes any sense, even a school principal couldn’t be so stupid. Be interested to hear how they framed their policy around GDPR too……



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,414 ✭✭✭ooter


    In the IT today it says "the issues giving rise to the resignations were legally privileged."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    The former principal said that in November 2021, a student had requested to be known as a different name and for gender neutral pronouns to be used. This was the first time a student had asked for such support and she wanted to be sure they did it properly.

    She said she spoke to colleagues in other schools, to her managerial body and also took advice from Transgender Equality Network Ireland (TENI) who conducted an online workshop for the school.

    She said she then issued an email to all staff members explaining the situation and said she had no recollection of getting any feedback from Mr Burke on the issue.

    If you could link the Departments expressed guidance on issues like this please.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,877 ✭✭✭Hoboo


    Thanks for sharing that. The departments guidance has only been recently published as is well known.

    I would have thought taking advice from colleagues who themselves have received their advice from the same NGO with its own one sided agenda, and then unilaterally imposing their decision without consulting all stakeholders first, was unwise. Surely the reasonable approach would be to consult the teachers in the school also, and not just inform them of the decision by email. We will eventually see that play out.

    How was the guidance framed around GDPR? There’s no mention.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    The departments guidance has only been recently published as is well known.

    They still don't have complete guidance on the issues.

    They have been asked to update their guidance, as yet they haven't.

    But even if they had just published guidance recently, this happened in 2021, unless she had a time machine how was she supposed to consult with the Departments guidance?

    I would have thought taking advice from colleagues who themselves have received their advice from the same NGO with its own one sided agenda,

    How do you know the other people she discussed it with with sought advice from TENI?

    One sided agenda? Who was she supposed to do consult with?

    Please be specific.

    and then unilaterally imposing their decision without consulting all stakeholders first, was unwise. Surely the reasonable approach would be to consult the teachers in the school also, and not just inform them of the decision by email

    The teachers are employees, it is up the principal and the board to formulate policy.

    Again though, you are missing the point. Burke had raised no issue with it.

    Like I said him and his ghoulish family. were fighting vaccines and other nutty shíté at the time.

    We will eventually see that play out.

    Please explain? What exactly do you mean?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 311 ✭✭Fotish


    Once somebody starts waffling about GDPR , you know they haven’t a leg to stand on !



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,282 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Schools implement policies all the time which are not legally required. The principal and BOM set the policies of the school. The principal directs the staff in the way these policies will be implemented. Refuse to do so and you are in the same trouble you'd be in any job for refusing to carry out your boss's instruction.

    So no, the Department of Education announcement is entirely irrelevant. All it means is that (in their opinion - needs a Supreme Court decision to be sure) the school / BOM cannot be legally obliged to set such a policy. But once they do, the staff have to implement it

    But of course with Burke it never even got that far, because he blew up at a public event

    Burke's beliefs one way or the other in relation to his rights and/or the law bear very little relation to reality

    This is Ireland, bizarro world in relation to education. The Dept. of Education doesn't really "oversee" schools. They pay (do not hire, do not fire) the teachers and give the schools capitation grants. The schools and their BOMs have an incredible amount of latitude in how they run their schools. This of course is all bound up with the 19th-century mess that is religious patronage of education

    How exactly can you claim the principal was being "stupid"? Is it because you dislike the policy…?

    Seems so…

    the same NGO with its own one sided agenda

    The "one side" they're on is on the side of the child concerned and their parents.

    and then unilaterally imposing their decision without consulting all stakeholders first

    Stakeholders such as Mayo religious family cults? What's it to them anyway what pronoun or name a child is known by. They need to grow up and suck it up

    Surely the reasonable approach would be to consult the teachers in the school also

    Schools are not democracies. BOM and principals set policy, if the patron is not happy then they can remove them. But this is entirely moot unless you have evidence the majority of the teaching staff were opposed to this policy, rather than just Burke.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,090 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    I wouldnt argue any of that. My post isn't sympathetic to his cause. Just pointing out the legalities of the situation if it goes to court. His argument will almost certainly be that the directive him and other teachers received had no legal basis and he was entitled to stand up for his rights. And legally no one can be forced to do anything against their beliefs, including his beliefs as regards sexual persuasion. That argument can't be overridden by school policies is a very valid legal argument perhaps in a courtroom.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,483 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    And that situation will never, ever get to court due to him accosting his boss and getting sacked for doing that.

    But that doesn't stop people who really, really, really want the problem to be anything other than Enochs behaviour towards his boss and following behaviour towards the courts from trying to drag it back in, probably 650+ times over the 650+ pages here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Just pointing out the legalities of the situation if it goes to court.

    It's been in court for 3 years. He keeps injuncting the process because he has no interest in a final ruling.

    His argument will almost certainly be that the directive him and other teachers received had no legal basis and he was entitled to stand up for his rights.

    He was fired for Gross Misconduct.

    He will have to argue in whatever court that it wasn't Gross Misconduct.

    And legally no one can be forced to do anything against their beliefs, including his beliefs as regards sexual persuasion.

    That's not true.

    But again it's moot.

    He wasn't fired for his beliefs.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,911 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "Burke didn't have any issue at the time because his family were knee deep in Covid lunacy."

    It musn't have been that important at the time, or maybe he didn't feel it was important enough to tell Mammy.



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