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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,023 ✭✭✭50HX


    One would think so but it's not the only barometer a head coach will work off, credit & trust in the bank is hugely understated imo by supporters. We know about it but don't want to really acknowledge it.

    Autumn 24 Mack Hansen had 4 urc games ( not in great form iirc) played before the NZ game, I was at that game & thought he was v v poor. He played himself into form as the AI's went on.

    Lowe is in a similar position this year, 2 urc games b4 AI's & form hasn't been great.

    I suspect he will be afforded the same opportunity as Hansen 24 AI's was.

    The difference this time is us supporters can see wing options going v well at club level that wasn't there in November 24, hence the suggestion for a Stockdale/Ward to start.

    Plenty of posters here will show that Farrell will back the newbie for a position...see Paddy Mc & even looking at Bohan this week.

    If he goes with Lowe v France then the defense will be the " how they go in training week" re the other options, some will back Lowe others see viable alternatives....its a circular discussion in many ways.

    I would like to see an alt to Lowe in Paris but suspect he will start, other will be happy with him.

    The thing now is if he stinks it out in Paris its hard to defend not selecting one of the viable alternatives



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,569 ✭✭✭blackcard


    How do the Irish hookers rate as scrummagers? Spotlight usually falls on props, even on locks but no one seems to mention a hookers impact.

    Has Sheahan put on a few kgs?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,316 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Very hard for us to know, I think - props' deficiencies tend to result in one of their props suffering. The hooker is literally hidden away in the centre.

    All you can do is go on what those in and around the set-up have said or occasionally see the difference when, in a rare instance, a hooker is the sole change in a scrum.

    Unless I'm mistaken, Kelleher is the best scrummager of the live Ireland options, Herring is the best scrummaging hooker on the island.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,281 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    James Tracy commented before in the context of the Leinster hookers (who he would have trained alongside), and said Ronan Kelleher was the strongest scrummager of that bunch; which stands to reason. He's a bit shorter and squatter than Sheehan, and seems very powerful. Believe Rob Herring is also a very powerful scrummaging hooker.

    Gus McCarthy doesn't strike me as an especially powerful scrummager, and would say the same for the likes of Tom Stewart, Lee Barron & Diarmuid Barron.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,516 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    As long as Lowe - or Henshaw, Ringrose, whoever - is doing the business for him, he won't panic.

    Ok, but if we focus on Lowe, it's fairly obvious he is not doing the business, so is Farrell going to panic and do something about it? He was crap in the AIs and his limitations were on full display.

    I don't think anyone is calling for Lowe to be dropped based purely on his Leinster performances in the URC this season, it's his Leinster performances and his Ireland performances that have led to questions about what he's really bringing to the table these days.

    Lowe is rapidly running out of credit in the bank. Or at least he really should be.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 364 ✭✭letsbefair


    With both Ulster and Munster not qualifying for the last 16 of the Heineken we need a dose of reality, our expectations should be realistic. Very few Irish players made teams of the week or created headlines. The URC performances are not close to test level. Andy Farrell will not pick players to go to Paris because they looked good in a few URC games. He will stick with guys who he trusts away to France especially given our front row issues. France will go after the scrum, they smell blood.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,023 ✭✭✭50HX


    Ulster weren't in the Champions Cup to start with.

    Paddy Mc played 140 mins of URC this season b4 going to make his test starts & its pretty much agreed across the board he is a great prospect...urc argument doesnt stack up.

    No league in the world is test level rugby....thats why its called test level



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,471 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Is the Champions Cup group stage a great barometer these days? In fairness the Leinster La Rochelle match was a proper game, so the Leinster players who played well there should be in credit. But a lot of the pool stage games are half baked now which saddens me greatly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 364 ✭✭letsbefair


    Paddy Mc is a unique player, very few like him with their hand up for selection. The point is we are not over flowing with top level players and our teams bar Leinster are not showing up as being in top form. We can't expect Andy Farrell and his coaches to perform miracles.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,516 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    Just going to conveniently leave out Leinster?


    France’s starting TH, most likely, isn’t any more experienced than Milne…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,026 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Ok, but if we focus on Lowe, it's fairly obvious he is not doing the business

    Again, 'fairly obvious' is entirely subjective.

    He was crap in the AIs and his limitations were on full display.

    I don't think he was crap tbh. A few wayward kicks aside, which he has always been prone to, I thought he had a decent series. Brainfarts are not a recent development for him, they're part of the reason he's been so good.

    Lowe is rapidly running out of credit in the bank.

    With Farrell? I'm not so sure tbh. But look, Ward and Kenny will get a run-out next week, Stockdale probably won't be needed at FB so he's an option for left wing in Paris. If Lowe is so bad and the alternatives are so good, his days are numbered.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,940 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    The only real similarity between him and Lowe is that discontented people on the internet think he should be dropped while no one whose job it is to pick winning rugby teams agrees.

    I mean, to be fair, it seems recently that Leo Cullen agrees…

    And there lies the issue with the discussion. There's a legitimate argument to be made for Lowe to be dropped that you just want to write off as "discontented people on the internet".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,602 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Mentally preparing myself for Lowe starting and Aki on the bench. Again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,977 ✭✭✭almostover


    That will also mean whichever of Prendergast or Byrne that doesn't start will be left out of the match day 23. If Aki benches then Crowley also has to cover 15.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,516 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    If Lowe is so bad and the alternatives are so good, his days are numbered.

    Again you're falling into your trap of hinting that Andy Farrell is infallible, and if Lowe is selected it's obvious that he's been playing well, and if he's not selected it's obvious he hasn't.

    All of these things can be true:

    • Lowe was poor in the AIs
    • Lowe is in poor form in general
    • There are alternatives to Lowe who appear to have the necessary skills and are in better form
    • Andy Farrell still picks Lowe despite what he has shown recently and what others have shown.
    • Lowe continues his middling to poor form and his continued selection turns out to be a mistake.


  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,289 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    thought youd be celebrating the fact that Henshaw isnt there…

    guess its easier to be miserable than happy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,281 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    It's genuinely crazy how when you look down the depth charts at LHP across all four provinces how poorly the other three have done at developing any options at all.

    Of all the minutes the 4 provinces have given to LHPs this season, the only minutes given to players with zero development link to Leinster Rugby pathways is 857 mins given by Ulster to Angus Bell (255), Sam Crean (456) and Callum Reid (146), and of those, only Reid was developed in Ireland.

    The remaining minutes, 3,410 (80%) all went to players who have development links to Leinster:

    • Jeremy Loughman - from Athy, Kildare, went to Blackrock College (ex Leinster Academy)
    • Michael Milne - from Birr, Offaly, went to Cistercian, Roscrea (ex Leinster Academy)
    • Josh Wycherley - from Bantry, Cork, went to Cistercian, Roscrea
    • Peter Dooley - from Birr, Offaly, went to St Brendan's, Birr
    • Jordan Duggan - from Newbridge, Kildare, went to Newbridge College
    • Billy Bohan - from Newbridge, Kildare, went to Newbridge College
    • Denis Buckley - from Roscommon, went to Blackrock College
    • Eric O'Sullivan - from Dublin, went to Templeogue College

    including the 5 at Leinster:

    • Paddy McCarthy - from Dublin, went to Blackrock College
    • Jack Boyle - from Dublin, went to St Michael's College
    • Andrew Porter - from Dublin, went to St Andrew's College
    • Alex Usanov - from Dublin, went to Belvedere College
    • Jerry Cahir - from Roscrea, went to Cistercian, Roscrea

    Outside of this - you have Temi Lasisi (from Enniscorthy, ex Leinster) injured atm in Connacht, and George Hadden (from Gorey) in the Munster Academy.

    The situation isn't miles different at THP either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,602 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    It's not being miserable to point out an obvious truth.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,026 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Again you're falling into your trap of hinting that Andy Farrell is infallible

    Conversely, you've again fallen into your trap of dismissing any defence of him as saying he's infallible.

    I don't think he's infallible, but I do recognise the arguments against Lowe's selection as the same ones we've seen about any number of different players, either being picked or their replacements being overlooked, going back several years now.

    I believe he's fallible, I just don't think he could be as fallible as he's made out to be here and still be as successful as he has been.

    On Lowe, I think he had a decent AI, particularly against SA and Australia. He's 33 so he's on borrowed time no matter what, but a winger who was never reliant on blinding pace might eke out a year or two more than one who was. When there's someone better, I'm confident that guy will get the jersey, I just don't think we're quite there yet.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,023 ✭✭✭50HX


    Just goes to show why Leinster are the envy of most other clubs globally.

    Well done them, some stark stats in there for others but also unsurprisingly so in some aspects



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 364 ✭✭letsbefair


    Very Interesting stats from Opta

    Players with 5+ retained kicks in the 2025 M6N:

    13 - Sam Prendergast

    10 - Alex Mitchell, Jamison Gibson-Park

    9 - Paolo Garbisi

    8 - Antoine Dupont, Tomos Williams

    6 - Ben White

    5 - Fin Smith, Gareth Anscombe, Martin Page-Relo



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    to be fair though, at times the reason the alternatives cant 'reef it off the incumbent' is because they come straight back into the team when available, no matter how well the other options played in their absence - in the case of rob kearney, payne and zebo did very well when he was unavailable but were straight out/ moved to other positions when he would come back, he even admitted himself that leinster wanted to keep carbery at 15 towards the end of his career but the irish management intervened. there was even a point with regards sexton, that the number 10 who shant be named was doing pretty well while he was injured but JS was straight back into the team as soon as he was fit - this was obviously a bit different seeing as he was a generational player but at the time i had thought it would have been better to test out the alternative in more high-level games



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The Irish management intervened, not to "protect" Kearney but because they (incorrectly imo) wanted Carbery as their backup 10.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    That well known Leinster product, Josh Whycherley.

    I'm messing of course, I understand the general point but just found that idea funny

    I'm more intrigued on how Connacht missed out on Cahir, since I'm pretty sure he was involved with the Connacht pathway at 18s and 19s level.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,602 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Agree with this. I don't think Keenan should be right back into the starting team, both for his own sake in trying to build back match fitness, and that it sends a crappy message to other players.

    Post edited by AbusesToilets on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,281 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    He played Leinster U18 schools (on the same team as Ben Murphy, Cian Prendergast, Bobby Sheehan, Tom Clarkson, Max O'Reilly etc), and then played Connacht U19s (same team as Diarmuid Kilgallen). He was playing hooker at U18 Schools.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Jerry played Leinster u18 schools. but Connacht didnt really miss out on him at time. possibly wasnt player he is now. his time in trinity and lansdowne combined with more work through nenaghs seamus harty made him pro prospect



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    it was also because JS wanted Kearney at 15, he said as much in his book



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  • Administrators Posts: 56,516 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I hear rumours of Keenan injured again and due to miss the entire 6N.



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