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Russia-Ukraine War (continuing)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭Viscount Aggro


    I cant see any news coverage about this, on international websites.

    I am dubious that its actually true, given the misinformation going on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    Finland only had 4 million people fighting a Soviet population of 200 million in 1939-40 and came out of it with independence and 90% of its territory intact. yes there was Finlandisation but the USSR left them in peace (although they had to bend over backwards sometimes like banning books the Soviets didnt like) afterwards. Finland dropped the "Friendship Treaty" when the USSR dissolved.

    I dont see how the USSR would have collapsed if the West had taken an approach that it couldnt be defeated. We are at risk of strengthening the arguments of our enemies that democracy is a weak system.

    I dont see how Ireland and the other colonies would have become independent if we took that approach.

    German magazine Der Spiegel claims a transcript of a conference call with top European officials details Alexander Stubb warning President Zelensky and Ukrainian delegates mustn't be “left alone” with “these guys”, reportedly referring to Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner and several Republicans urge Donald Trump to increase military aid to Ukraine.

    Belgium resisted banning Russian diamonds until December 2023.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭RGARDINR


    I doubt it as if it did happen would be all over RTE and skynews.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,192 ✭✭✭eire4


    I would have been shocked if at this point if European leaders had any trust in the US regime at all. It is quite clear IMHO at best the US could care less what happens at worst they will actively assist the Russian dictatorship. I have said it before but not just in regard to Ukraine and the Russian dictatorships invasion but in general Europe simply cannot trust the US any more and we need to move forward with that assumption in mind.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,481 ✭✭✭Rawr


    The Russians want Europe? Pretty much yes….if they could get away with it they’d grab all the way to the Bay of Biscay.

    Why? Because that’s been the Russian M-O for the past 500 odd years. They would delight at taking Western Europe as that would allow them to steal and pillage all of the nice stuff they want but are too feckless to do right themselves. That’s also part of why the Soviet Union functioned at all…the Russians had entrapped a whole host of more capable satellite republics to do provide them with competency.

    The Russian Federation has been in a slow and inevitable implosion for the past few decades and their only real hope to continue is to absorb better able countries and leech them for everything they can get. They want to do this to Ukraine, and if they could they’d do it in a heartbeat to Poland or Germany or France…or hell even here.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 678 ✭✭✭juno10353


    It is terrifying to think that a few minutes time difference could have made a critical international incident, if not worse. Are we now in a position that a nuclear drone can enter our airspace we have no detergent or no ability to disable. Also the secretly deployed Irish naval vessel was no secret to the drones.

    We don't even know if there was an undetected ship in the same waters deploying the drones, or were they launched from Killiney Hill

    Certainly not good enough



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,496 ✭✭✭✭Jelle1880


    Using wars from over 80 years ago doesn't really make much sense. I'm not saying Ukraine will lose and I sincerely hope they smash Russia, but what De Wever said is that those who seem sure of Russia's loss are deluding themselves because as it stands there isn't much to indicate this.

    They are slowly pushing forward on the battlefield and it seems they have the US in their pocket when it comes to negotiations. It sucks but that's all De Wever said, as I mentioned it's been taken out of context.

    The likes of Politico seem adamant to blame Belgium for everything, when in reality Belgium's point makes perfect sense.

    This comment from Reddit explains it well:

    - The money is with Euroclear. That is not a government institution but a private company providing important international financial services.

    - The Belgian government can't just grab that money: In a law-based democracy, the state can't just grab this cash at will. Laws have to be changed and a strong legal case has to be build to do so.

    - If Belgium confiscates the Russian money, the country will be targeted by numerous law-suits from Russia and there is a big chance that a judge will rule this illegal and order Belgium to pay back the money.

    - 140B Euro is a huge sum for a country like Belgium to pay back. The government has been struggling to the edge of falling to find 9B for the normal budget, wich isn't even enough.

    - Prime Minister De Wever didn't rule out actually doing it, but he mentioned those legal concerns and the severe financial risk for Belgium.

    - Upon asking the fellow EU partners to share that risk they turned him down, saying "We can't expose our countries to these legal and financial risks", thereby proving Belgium's exact point.

    Instead of pushing Belgium to take risks it cannot take, EU should focus on:

    - Building a strong legal case for this operation.

    - Ensure the risk is spread along all the countries willing to help Ukraine

    - Prepare for the fallout of this operation because this could have much wider consequences. Russia and its allies could threaten to confiscate European assets in Russia. Foreign countries will now hesitate to make use of financial services such as Euroclear provides because they aren't as safe as they thought.

    For the seized assets it's very clear:

    • The European Central Bank is unwilling to provide guarantees.
    • Christine Lagarde, president of the ECB, said that using the frozen Russian assets "hopefully is in compliance with international law".

    You can't take an action like this based on 'hopefully'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    Lagarde is a laggard when it comes to the frozen assets. She should not be reappointed for a second term. We need the institution to speak with one voice on Russia-Ukraine. Dividing Europe and separating it from the United States has always been a Russian foreign policy goal, going back to Soviet times. MAGA is playing into their hands but so are a few member states.

    Russia has had no problem confiscating Western assets in Russia, like Danone Russia and the aircraft (Ireland was the main source of them), but theyve been able to afford this war for 4 years.

    Its a matter of restitution and justice that the victims of a crime are compensated.

    From what I have seen in the ECB since it was established is that people often get the top job there because its seen as their turn. Jean Claude Trichet's bearish interest rate policy did not suit Ireland and arguably contributed to the housing bubble.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,496 ✭✭✭✭Jelle1880


    So you agree ? :)

    I would be more than fine if those assets are used to help Ukraine, but as it stands the EU is trying to get Belgium to do it alone without any assurances or help, which Belgium rightly doesn't want to do. De Wever is pretty clear: If the EU and ECB back Belgium, those assets will be on their way to Ukraine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    The urgency right now is that the EU says Ukraine will run out of money by next Summer if they dont get the loan secured on the reparations secured on the assets.

    If that happens, we could have a repeat of the 2022 Ukrainian refugee crisis, especially if we again see the litany of destroyed cities.

    Putin is not interested in anything that leaves an independent Ukraine. We need to realise that in the West. Russia only respects strength. The Russian economy is the size of Italy's economy. There is no reason we need to bow to Putin.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,852 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    Just to be clear the assets Russia seized were private assets not sovereign assets. We have similar laws in ireland with the CAB.

    It is a matter of restitution, I agree with that. The Belgian PM was wrong to say the victor gets the spoils etc...

    What annoys me was both the UK and the US (under Biden) telling the EU to transfer those assets to Ukraine, despite the UK and US refusing to do the same with the Russian assets they themselves seized.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    The plan is not to hand over the capitals, but to secure a loan based on them in lieu of Russian reparations to Ukraine. We have already been paying profits from some of the assets to Ukraine.

    I think with the Russian Central bank assets, those are sovereign assets.

    I think part of the problem with the international debate is that it is too influenced by corporation lobbyists opposing a level of sanctions that would force Russia to make concessions. Some EU states are still buying Russian LNG. And if you include Russian oil that is mixed with foreign crude and then refined in India and exported around the world, we are still buying Russian oil. On the Russian oil/gas issue, Trump has a point in criticising the EU. But the danger is that it becomes a game of pass-the-parcel.

    Also Russia still only controls 19% of Ukraine.

    If the argument some are making is that a small country cant beat a big country, then that has been disproven in conflicts like Israel and the Arabs, the US vs Vietnam, decolonisation etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,852 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    Profits from the assets is completely different.

    But on the loan, who pays that back if the Russians manage to get their seized assets back?

    Is Belgium on the hook for the loan? Can I walk into a bank and get a loan and use someone else's seized assets as collateral if I show a reason why? (like I'm going to seek damages from them at a future date) Think of those airline companies and other businesses whose assets were seized by Russia.

    I don't believe and never did believe that dispersing the seized assets was an easy task especially with the EU's love of following the law.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,755 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    Lots of factories being set up in the UK and other countries to manufacture for Ukraine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    There needs to be a change to the treaties to limit legal challenges to sanctions against a state. Its disgraceful that the oligarchs can challenge them in EU courts.

    I do agree that the EU should help Belgium afford this though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,629 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Article 29. My understanding of this is that we are prohibited from arming another country that is at war or sending troops to assist:

    "The Irish Constitution does not explicitly define neutrality but contains Articles that support a policy of peace and non-alignment

    Article 29 affirms Ireland's commitment to peace, the pacific settlement of disputes, and international law, while a specific clause prevents the state from joining a "common defence" established by the EU."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,374 ✭✭✭Jizique


    Cherie Blair is representing one of the oligarchs in a London court, as he looks to get his UK assets unfrozen.

    Tony has been very quiet on this war, for a guy who has his tentacles all over the Gaza issue and the digital IDs in the UK (where his son's company is a big beneficiary).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,864 ✭✭✭zv2




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    I never liked Blairs policy on Russia when he was in government. Hardly one syllable of criticism of Putins clampdown on dissent in Putins first few years. When pro Russian puppet leader Akhmad Kadyrov was killed by Chechen rebels, Blair called it an example of terrorism in Chechnya. He and Bush bought Putins argument that his repression was part of the "war on terror" hook, line and sinker. I dont recall that government mentioning the assassination of Anna Politkovskaya in 2002 who reported on attrocities in Chechnya. The West abandoned the democratic aspirations of at least some Russians, naively expecting the repession would stay within Russia, despite regimes like Putins always needing foreign enemies to distract the public from domestic problems.

    Vic on X suggesting a link between De Wever's current position on the assets, and his visits to Russia.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,067 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    That's a conveniently self serving argument. The could be ended, with Russia's defeat, if NATO got off their asses and forced the issue. Russia is already engaging in active sabotage and subversion against European countries.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Russia has had no problem confiscating Western assets in Russia,

    No they didn't and way back at the start of this war on this thread I expressed shock at the utter idiocy of Russia's move. Imho it was one of their more blindingly stupid moves. Before sanctions hit, international financial institutions, "The Money" would have thought long and hard before leasing or lending anything to Russia again, or if they did they would do so at a major cost to offset the clear risk. With that single action Russia in effect sanctioned themselves and wrote themselves out of the international rules of business. Oh certainly the more roguish of The Money, or places like China would take that risk, but like I said they would get much more than their pound of flesh for doing so. Russia gets hit again.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,060 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    The Russian ship Shtandart was anchored off Killiney in July. Then it made a night time landing in Clogherhead, louth. None of this was approved or permission asked by the sanctioned vessel. The coast guard only boarded the ship finally 2 days after it illegally docked in Killiney and left then hours after it docked again in Port Oriel. That was plenty of time to fly drones to agents in Killiney or in Louth. And leave them with them for the what if's plans.

    The ship should have been impounded by the state straight away in the first instance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    We havent fought a war in 105 years. When you havent fought a war in over a century, you can get super complacent. I strongly oppose starting wars, but not self defence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,496 ✭✭✭✭Jelle1880


    That tweet is a pathetic smear campaign against De Wever. He's always been open about his support for Ukraine.

    People seem to not realise that his point regarding the assets is backed by every single political party in Belgium. Belgium won't risk itself doing this when the rest of Europe sits on their hands, nor should they.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    Report on the Ukrainian Resistance in occupied Ukraine. Mentions their role in Operation Spiders Web, which took out 11-12 strategic bombers out in Russia. Parallels with the Anti-Nazi Resistance in World War 2.

    Germany saying no to Russia returning to the G8.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 132 ✭✭The Venus Project


    Yes - this is the prudent, vigilant and even hawkish view to hold especially now they have moved on Urkaine. I believe the best way to end this now is to give them leeway to reenege and pull out with something for them which signifies a win.

    Calling them names and saying that they want more or can't be believed is the sure way to WW3. We need to give them more - pull the Ukrainians out of the occupeid territory and include the Russians in the future of global business. To shut them out completely and start demanding reparations for war crimes is a closed off strategy.

    Ultimatums usually backfire when the accused call it's bluff. To lay down the law to Russia now is not advisable. We need an agreement and now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭Addmagnet




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,533 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Fresh fish yet again. RuZZia must be seriously running scared these last couple days.

    Where's the Mearsheimer and Boris Johnson squares checked off?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 518 ✭✭✭phester28


    letting Russia "win" empowers the state to rinse and repeat. International law (or even national law) means nothing to that country. A bit like a fungus it will only grow if left untreated. It must be painful for Russia in the longer term in order to successfully dissuade Russia from just staying in War mode and pumping money to ramp up its military complex for the next phase of War to Make russia GREAT again



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,496 ✭✭✭✭Jelle1880


    No you don't get it. If we let them win then they will definitely never do it again. Pinky promise.



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