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Government to hit ‘nuclear button’ granting itself emergency powers to solve infrastructure crisis

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,956 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    don’t think planning is an obstacle for hospitals considering the Gov seems to only want to close them down.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,219 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    He would go out the back door or the window.

    I guess there’d be more concern about getting out from the bedroom as that’s where the individual would be asleep and likely any fire would be at a more advanced stage by the time they were aware of it.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    If you get PP for anything in your house, and you want a small extension of even a few s metres, you must apply for PP for it, no matter how trivial. That needs to change. A 'small change' system needs to be set up, similar to the 40 s m exemption.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,068 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Okay, let’s nip the Daily Mail style bullshit in the bud. You do not go to An Bord Pleanála (as was) to put a damn window in your roof. If it is flush with the roof and at the back of the house, you normally do not need planning at all. Otherwise, you apply to your local authority, and they will tell you yes or no. Usually for small works they will tell you yes unless you’re doing something that’s stupid, ugly or harmful to the structure of the house and/or neighbouring properties. This part of the system is pretty fair, but some people think they’re special, and can’t take being told “no”.

    @Sam Russell - I don’t get your complaint. Extensions of up to 40 square metres at the back of a house are exempt from planning, but that’s an aggregate, including previous extensions. If you got PP for a larger extension, but then want to make that bigger, then of course you need planning again, because you’ve changed the plan. You can’t ask for A, then build A+B on the strength of permission for A.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    @KrisW1001 I know of a case where a 4 sq m extension had to go for full PP. What I am suggesting is that such trivial PP applications are signed off as trivial, and therefore exempt.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Was that a front porch though? Or a house built 4 sq.m. larger than planned?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I understand it was to accommodate a wardrobe in a bedroom.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Whoah that's unusual. That wardrobe must have cost them a fortune.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭Glenomra


    just wondering what happened to the government's proposal to allow planning exemptions for modular houses.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,874 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,874 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 276 ✭✭Bsharp


    Sounds like tinkering around the edges based on the proposals in that article.

    Their inability to fast track the 4km luas extension, which was no real complexity and is largely through green fields, puts the Taskforce report into context.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,514 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    Good..remember the emergency powers they gave themselves to remove all our civil liberties. I do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭uptherebels




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,219 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3




  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,542 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    In an attempt to minimise the spread of a potentially fatal respiratory disease, and to avoid overwhelming hospitals, the government encouraged people who did not need to travel, to not travel.
    For whatever bizarre reason, some feel bitter enough about it and now think that their civil liberties were removed because of this sensible request.
    Anyhow, this isn't a discussion about Covid or the lockdowns!

    Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/ .



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,874 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    No more Covid rabbit hole please



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,874 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Very good. The picture in that article is the sewage treatment plant that's been held up in the courts / ABP since 2019! Total joke.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,919 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    The catch is that anything and everything can be "vital infrastructure" when there's a shortage. You can argue that commercial concerns are vital infrastructure at times.

    I'm not complaining or blaming anyone here, just saying I really think they need to focus on resourcing ACP and the courts and pushing for them to give faster decisions above all else. I don't see why the JR's would be a problem if they were conducted and closed quickly enough.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,924 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Spending more money on lawyers is not a solution.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,874 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    the report in full


    https://www.gov.ie/en/department-of-public-expenditure-infrastructure-public-service-reform-and-digitalisation/publications/accelerating-infrastructure-report-and-action-plan/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,319 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    The problem is the present structure especially where enviormental concerns are a get out of jail free card to cover legal costs allows them to be used as an add on to an objection.

    Therefore if you have a NIMBY issue you add on an environmental concern so as it allows you a free judicial review. This idea we should better resources our courts and ACP.....to what extent. There is only so much money and manpower available. Take a recent case not a one affecting a public body

    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/residents-of-limerick-village-emerge-victorious-in-planning-row-over-floodlights-at-local-church-1835824.html

    The lighting was up 16 years ago when a new car park was added to the church. An error was made in not applying for PP for the lighting. Because the church wanted an ancillary small development it had to apply for retention

    The residents lost the case on the lighting effecting them but won on the grounds that the bat might he effected. Now its 16 years later so the bats have obviously adapted. Like many churches in rural Ireland its uses now for the reposing of the deceased the night before and I think this is the what hooha is about by a few houses adjacent to the church. There woukd only be 6-10 funerals a year require the church and lights would only be required probably from September to March.

    Now ACP went against its inspector report, LCC who granted retention and what is in the general good. Was its decision coloured by the risk of a JR which it woukd have to defend where asnow it has thrown the liability onto a private entity.

    NO matter what amount of resources are given to ACP and the Courts the process would still be 2-3 years

    There is an opinion that ACP is now rejecting planning applications especially on small projects so as not to have resources tied up in JR managing them

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,826 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    bats tend not to adapt, but tend to move to greener pastures, and/or, die trying!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,919 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    You make plenty of good points and I fully agree that the JR's are being abused by NIMBY's, but to your primary question of "to what extent should we better resource ACP and courts" my answer would be "personnel gaps have long been identified in ACP and courts and it's not alone not being resolved, but it's barely being discussed". We have apparently had a shortage of somewhere between 40-110 judges over a period of several years but we're prioritising legislation change. We had ACP - already of dubious efficiency - see their work list massively increase through sending all sorts of "HoUsInG" schemes through them as a kind of fast-track...with fairly obvious knock-on results.

    So I don't agree with you that "no matter what amount of resources are given…" because we have never actually given them the resources they needed, and simultaneously have been increasing their workload.

    Right. I'm sure there's a thread somewhere that we can both go to, where we can both agree that the legal profession in Ireland are the cause of a lot of inefficiency and poor behaviours but this thread's not the right place for it. I'm talking about court backlogs which generally aren't a result of too little money being spent on lawyers. You're presenting a straw man argument.

    Back to my first point, we've apparently identified JR's as a high priority problem area but it looks to me like a it will have unintended consequences which will create new problems, and that significant original problems will remain. For instance I'd be very confident that private developments will be added to the "strategic" list, for instance Port of Cork's new proposed "private" N8 signalised interchange. But this will subsequently result in other kinds of challenge.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,746 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    New strategic legislation will actually cause more delays as they absolutely will be appealed against in court and tested which will cause absolute havoc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,919 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yes this is the point I'm trying to make too. I'm not sure it will help the situation and think it could cause other new problems.

    It seems like the top identified priority is to reduce court backlogs which is good. But they also make a leap to "an alarming number of cases" without also quantifying whether the number of projects going through planning has increased. Maybe their conclusions are sound, but it really reads like they started from a baseline of "our legislation is more forgiving to objectors than the EU average" and built everything around that.

    It looks like the planned actions are to water down legislation, lobby the EU to reduce legislation further and then incentivise private developers to things get built sooner (by reducing infrastructure blockages). There is literally no mention in the document of judge or court staffing, and you can see clearly on page 34 (figure 4) that staffing in ACP only really increased in the last 2 years, which would have obviously resulted in more cases coming through and more associated JR's. I agree we need to fix the courts backlog but it's not clear to me that reducing the quantity of cases is actually the top priority solution.

    Separately, I hate to agree with David McWilliams on this one but it seems to me like the same private developers we're trying to incentivise to deliver housing are already very incentivised to NOT erode demand to any degree by increasing their product availability. I really don't expect these changes to result in more housing, which should be everyone's top priority goal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭Consonata


    https://thecurrency.news/articles/209886/auto-draft-135/

    Good article by Ronan Lyons on the issue

    Some commentators recently, wary of attempts to reform or restrict the volume of JRs, have argued something along the lines of: “Well, many of the JRs have won so clearly they had a point.” The problem with that is that this is very close to arguing, “See, this shouldn’t have gone ahead.”

    But the court never makes a judgement as to whether the project is good planning. It answers a narrower set of questions: did the authority do what the law required of it, and did it give reasons that are intelligible and sufficient? And in the Irish system, the answers to those questions are vague and open to interpretation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,493 ✭✭✭plodder


    That's an interesting case, mainly because of how the decision was made, rather than it being of any great "strategic" concern. The inspector wrote a concise and well reasoned report on the bat question, and the board just rejected it, with no substantive reasons given.

    Maybe in that case, the benefit was outweighed by the stated risks (to a known bat roost in a nearby SAC), but you'd like to have seen something more substantive arguing the point. You would also hope that in a more strategic case the balance would swing the other way. Though not sure that happened in some other cases, like the Galway ring road.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,319 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Tge light are operational for 16 years so tge bats have obviously adapted. But its a perfectly good example of objectors adding in an enviormental element to an objection to get a free run at a judicial review. It looks like ACP are taking decisions so as not to swallow up resources going to judicial reviews.

    Technically AFAIK because the lights are there longer 12 years they do not need to be removed however for the church to carry out any development it will have to remove the mandatory then. Apply for planning which it will probably get if its gets a favourable EIA. This is not the first or Second inspectors report ACP has overturned lately there is another one where a farmers inheritor was refused planning for a houe about 12-15 months ago after waiting for over a year for ACP to access it. Again it was an add in enviormental issue that caught them, the objectors was a cross the road from them. The objector added in the enviormental issue when they hired a professional planning consultant after the LA granted the orginal planning when they were lodging the ACP objection

    When poster add in about resourcing ACP and the judicial system they are not factoring in the damage and cost to ordinary individuals and small businesses the effect the present situation has on individuals.

    It's wrong that organisations and individuals should use enviormental add ons to fund or win an objection. This idea that funding is the issue is not totally correct. The structure is crazy. I am not sure if the church or the farm inherited have/had access to a free judicial review. But even if they have few can wait 2-3years with there life on hold not to mind the present situation where it is 5-7 years

    Slava Ukrainii



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