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Russia-Ukraine War (continuing)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,595 ✭✭✭TinyMuffin


    trump is trying to rape the Ukraine like a girl Epstein trafficked to him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭brickster69


    All go today on the news front. Seems like Kupyansk is now under full control according to Gerrasimov with 15 battalions blocked in the area according to Tass. Reported by multiple other news sources.

    The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters. — Antonio Gramsci



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭Deub


    Ukraine is pushing back Russia in the Dvorichna area of Kupyansk district. Joint Forces Command spokesperson Viktor Trehubov reported that in Kupyansk, Ukrainian forces continue operations to eliminate pockets of Russian troops in the northern part of the city.

    https://english.nv.ua/amp/ukraine-s-iron-brigade-drives-russian-forces-out-of-dvorichna-in-kupyansk-district-50562311.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 940 ✭✭✭mike_cork




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Honestly? I think it's because Trump genuinely thinks that peace under any terms is better than no peace, regardless of how bad those terms are. I can think of some Irish politicians with similar views.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,142 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    I doubt you honestly believe that, agent krasnov is doing his work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,730 ✭✭✭rolling boh


    Don't forget Trump's great 'peace deal' in the middle east has resulted in 300 killed since he finished the war . It really is sickening the way Europe has let him more or less decide the plan for Ukraine instead of Europe taking control and leaving him on the sidelines .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,303 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Surely no other country would elect someone like Trump who is happy for Russia to get everything it wants?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭Avatar in the Post


    “But rather than reject it outright, Zelensky agreed to negotiate”

    Zelensky has to humour His Lowness - He cannot outright say Trump’s plan is batshít crazy because you must not proboke a temper tantrum.

    Zelensky has to walk a tightrope and has done so daily for the last 4 years. He is an incredibly strong person and “sucks it up” for his people. 🫡



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,036 ✭✭✭rogber


    Yes this I hate so much too. Trump is the school bully and all the European leaders basically queue up to lick his backside in the hope they (and their economy) won't be the next person he picks on. It's painful to watch and shows what a spent force Europe is today (while still a great place to live, which is so many are desperate to migrate there)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭Avatar in the Post


    For that to be true Trump would have to have a modicum of decency. He clearly does not. He wants a peace deal, no matter how damaging, so he can look like a competent statesman while the Epstein files will confirm otherwise.

    Nobody believes Russia wants a reduced Ukrainian army other than to get their 3 day victory NEXT time. Only a fool would say otherwise or a Vatnik would support.

    This will be, what, Trump’s 9th peace deal?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 184 ✭✭randomcorkman




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭monseiur


    It seems that yet another corruption scandal has hit Zelenskyy and Ukraine with at least 100 million dollars siphoned off - money that was supposed to be used to protect Ukraine's power plants from Russian sabotage. Of course this 100 million is just the tip of the iceberg.

    It will make life even more difficult for Zelenskyy as he travels the world with his begging bowl while his foxes are left at home minding the hen house. It was said when Zelenskyy was elected that he was just a puppet for the corrupt war lords that have ruled Ukraine for years…….perhaps there was a grain of truth in it after all.

    Zelenskyy would be well advised to spend more time at home and try to take some control of his government & country before it's too late. With stalemate at the frontline and Trump happy to see and indeed almost approving Putin's take over of the mineral rich east of Ukraine the writing may already be on the wall for Zelenskyy. He's currently in a no win situation - if he agrees to redraw the map of the east of his country the vast majority of Ukrainians will rise up against him and his government and on the other hand if he rejects the peace proposals and decide to fight on Trump and NATO may withdraw some/all of their moral, financial and military support.

    If the EU apply the same criteria to Ukraine to join the EU as they apply to other countries re. corruption, the rule of law, stability of government institutions, banking etc. etc. it will take at least 25 years before they qualify to become full members.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,250 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Nah, K in this case must be Kellogg. Who has announced he wont be continuing in his role at almost the same time, so it seems like Kellogg did leak the proposal (probably modified it to better suit his own views) and was caught as the leaker.

    It doesn't matter tbh because the proposal simply wont work. The Europeans are already gearing up to dust down the NATO peacekeepers in Ukraine fantasy to try sabotage any peace deal. And Zelensky and the ultra-nationalists simply wont accept even the most minor concessions like granting cultural and religious protections to Russian speakers and Christians. And Trump has no ability to actually back up US commitments - is the US congress really going to ratify an international treaty to lock in the terms of this proposal? No chance. And the Russians haven't been involved - it seems to be purely a proposal by Witkoff.

    Give it two weeks and Trump will be back to bloviating about Tomahawks and sanctions again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,971 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Can you imagine a scenario where the Americans are attacked and territory is taken.

    The EU helps, then goes behind the Americans backs and present a deal saying you need to accept it or else where the invader is victorious because we can all imagine the parades in Moscow if this happens.

    Can you imagine what the Americans would say if anyone dared tell them to give up land.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,070 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    It was Russia that invaded Ukraine, not the other way around when this started.

    "Christians"? The Russian Orthodox Church is in schism with the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople over recognition of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine. OCU Churches have been seized by the occupiers, priests killed, and the same has happened to Catholics and the formerly large Protestant population in Eastern Ukraine (a million before the 2014 war).

    Also the Russian church is headed by an ex KGB agent, Kirill, who says this is holy war, and called Putin's Presidency "a miracle from God". Russia has a tradition of Caesaropapism, where the goverment controls the Church and where Russia controlled the Church in Ukraine before independence. In Tsarist Russia, a list of "traitors" was read out at Mass, including Ukrainian rebel leaders.

    After independence, much of the Ukrainian church split between the Kyiv Patriarchate and the Moscow Patriarchate. The election of Kirill was marked by complaints of interference by the security services. He is a billionaire and a puppet of Vladimir Putin.

    Its clear there are many Russian speakers in the cities Putin has destroyed in Eastern Ukraine, so that argument about defending them is bogus.

    Trump needs a distraction from Epstein and this may be part of that but it's shameful capitulation and I hope Europe and Ukraine will stand up to it. Whenever Witkoff is involved in my opinion it's a bad sign for Ukraine and European security.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,481 ✭✭✭Rawr


    Relaying stuff from the TASS-hole are we? Do you know what else TASS (Russia’s Propaganda arm) do not report on? That would be the Russian bombing of Ukrainian children in their beds.

    Do tell…Bricky…why do you think that is? Since you are so willing to use TASS as a source to share here?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,757 ✭✭✭flutered


    he hates zelensky with a vengence because he would not throw the bidens under the proverbial bus, then look at the way biden treated ukraine afterwards



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,397 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    The deal in full

    1. Ukraine's sovereignty will be confirmed.

    2. A comprehensive [sic] and comprehensive non-aggression agreement will be concluded between Russia, Ukraine and Europe. All ambiguities of the last 30 years will be considered settled.

    3. It is expected that Russia will not invade neighbouring countries and NATO will not expand further.

    4. A dialogue will be held between Russia and NATO, mediated by the United States, to resolve all security issues and create conditions for de-escalation in order to ensure global security and increase opportunities for cooperation and future economic development.

    5. Ukraine will receive reliable security guarantees.

    6. The size of the Ukrainian Armed Forces will be limited to 600,000 personnel.

    7. Ukraine agrees to enshrine in its constitution that it will not join NATO, and NATO agrees to include in its statutes a provision that Ukraine will not be admitted in the future.

    8. NATO agrees not to station troops in Ukraine.

    9. European fighter jets will be stationed in Poland.

    10. US guarantee:

    ▪️ The US will receive compensation for the guarantee.

    ▪️ If Ukraine invades Russia, it will lose the guarantee.

    ▪️ If Russia invades Ukraine, in addition to a decisive coordinated military response, all global sanctions will be reinstated, recognition of the new territory and all other benefits of this deal will be revoked.

    ▪️ If Ukraine launches a missile at Moscow or St. Petersburg without cause, the security guarantee will be deemed invalid.

    11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership and will receive short-term preferential access to the European market while this issue is being considered.

    12. A powerful global package of measures to rebuild Ukraine, including but not limited to:

    a. The creation of a Ukraine Development Fund to invest in fast-growing industries, including technology, data centres, and artificial intelligence.

    b. The United States will cooperate with Ukraine to jointly rebuild, develop, modernise, and operate Ukraine's gas infrastructure, including pipelines and storage facilities.

    c. Joint efforts to rehabilitate war-affected areas for the restoration, reconstruction and modernisation of cities and residential areas.

    d. Infrastructure development.

    e. Extraction of minerals and natural resources.

    f. The World Bank will develop a special financing package to accelerate these efforts.


    13. Russia will be reintegrated into the global economy:

    a. The lifting of sanctions will be discussed and agreed upon in stages and on a case-by-case basis.

    b. The United States will enter into a long-term economic cooperation agreement for mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, artificial intelligence, data centres, rare earth metal extraction projects in the Arctic, and other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities.

    c. Russia will be invited to rejoin the G8.


    14. Frozen funds will be used as follows:

    $100 billion in frozen Russian assets will be invested in US-led efforts to rebuild and invest in Ukraine. The US will receive 50% of the profits from this venture. Europe will add $100 billion to increase the amount of investment available for Ukraine's reconstruction. Frozen European funds will be unfrozen. The remainder of the frozen Russian funds will be invested in a separate US-Russian investment vehicle that will implement joint projects in specific areas. This fund will be aimed at strengthening relations and increasing common interests to create a strong incentive not to return to conflict.

    15. A joint American-Russian working group on security issues will be established to promote and ensure compliance with all provisions of this agreement.

    16. Russia will enshrine in law its policy of non-aggression towards Europe and Ukraine.

    17. The United States and Russia will agree to extend the validity of treaties on the non-proliferation and control of nuclear weapons, including the START I Treaty.

    18. Ukraine agrees to be a non-nuclear state in accordance with the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.

    19. The Zaporizhzhya Nuclear Power Plant will be launched under the supervision of the IAEA, and the electricity produced will be distributed equally between Russia and Ukraine — 50:50.

    20. Both countries undertake to implement educational programmes in schools and society aimed at promoting understanding and tolerance of different cultures and eliminating racism and prejudice:

    a. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.

    b. Both countries will agree to abolish all discriminatory measures and guarantee the rights of Ukrainian and Russian media and education.

    c. All Nazi ideology and activities must be rejected and prohibited.


    21. Territories:

    a. Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk will be recognised as de facto Russian, including by the United States.

    b. Kherson and Zaporizhzhia will be frozen along the line of contact, which will mean de facto recognition along the line of contact.

    c. Russia will relinquish other agreed territories it controls outside the five regions.

    d. Ukrainian forces will withdraw from the part of Donetsk Oblast that they currently control, and this withdrawal zone will be considered a neutral demilitarised buffer zone, internationally recognised as territory belonging to the Russian Federation. Russian forces will not enter this demilitarised zone.


    22. After agreeing on future territorial arrangements, both the Russian Federation and Ukraine undertake not to change these arrangements by force. Any security guarantees will not apply in the event of a breach of this commitment.

    23. Russia will not prevent Ukraine from using the Dnieper River for commercial activities, and agreements will be reached on the free transport of grain across the Black Sea.

    24. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve outstanding issues:

    a. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on an ‘all for all’ basis.

    b. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children.

    c. A family reunification programme will be implemented.

    d. Measures will be taken to alleviate the suffering of the victims of the conflict.


    25. Ukraine will hold elections in 100 days.

    26. All parties involved in this conflict will receive full amnesty for their actions during the war and agree not to make any claims or consider any complaints in the future.

    27. This agreement will be legally binding. Its implementation will be monitored and guaranteed by the Peace Council, headed by President Donald J. Trump. Sanctions will be imposed for violations.

    28. Once all parties agree to this memorandum, the ceasefire will take effect immediately after both sides retreat to agreed points to begin implementation of the agreement.

    Trump's 28 point plan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,070 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    A sellout to Russia which Europe should reject. Kyiv reportedly annoyed countries like Britain have not publicly done so. Starmer in my opinion is terrified of angering Trump.

    The proposal includes two thirds of frozen Russian assets being unfrozen and the remainder being used to rebuild Ukraine. It lifts the sanctions.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,027 ✭✭✭macraignil


    I think you are completely right in identifying this "plan" as a move by Trump to distract some public attention from the domestic problems he is having politically. There is no progression in what has been announced from the last time Trump's incompetent staff came up with a rehash of putin's demands that had no hope of finding common ground between the two sides in the war. As Kallas pointed out quite accurately on the news report I saw earlier, this proposal simply asks for concessions from Ukraine and none from putin. No one needs to stand up to it as no one except pro putin propagandists or mentally challenged could see it as any basis for agreement between Ukraine and putin's terrorist state. Trump will move onto some other pea brained "bestest plan ever" next week while the EU and Ukraine will play along with his delusion until he moves onto another. Meanwhile time continues to run out for putin's economic viability.

    https://united24media.com/latest-news/russia-starts-selling-off-its-gold-reserves-to-fund-the-war-budget-breaking-a-long-held-taboo-13627

    Post edited by macraignil on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,657 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    Thanks for the update comrade. Must be tough avoiding every mention of genocide and war crimes on the thread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,070 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    There are some people who live in the West, benefit from its democracy and individual freedoms, but also bash the West and support its enemies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,250 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Those terms cannot be real? Why would the Russians hand over their money to the US to manage and take 50% profits from? Or hand over the ZNPP to the US? There isn't even the lifting of sanctions - just a promise to maybe talk about it.

    A Ukrainian army "limited" to 600,000 men? While the Ukrainians would reject any restrictions, it probably doesn't have 600,000 men now or any means to pay for such a huge army in the future given it is effectively bankrupt. The Ukrainians are not going to agree to withdraw from any territory after having sacrificed countless lives holding on to the smallest settlements.

    If that really is the proposed terms, then its not even going to get off the ground. It's clearly the product of internal fighting in the White House about what the US might be willing to offer, without taking any account at all of what the Russians or Ukrainians have stated as their positions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 517 ✭✭✭8mv


    Point 26 is fun...please forget our war crimes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,303 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Actually a Ukrainian army of 600,000 might be doable, if all the decommissioned troops were kept up to speed in territorial divisions which could be quickly activated. After all, Israel keeps a small enough fixed army with a massive reserve and Switzerland has a similar idea. The more important thing is how that force is armed, a professionally run army, with no corruption, which was guaranteed state of the art US and European weaponry would be a real deterrent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,723 ✭✭✭combat14


    this new putin plan is intended to be ukraine's versaille - zelensky and europe cant accept it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 293 ✭✭AngeloArgue


    Why would the Russians hand over their money to the US to manage and take 50% profits from?

    A bird in the hand and all that.

    The 28 point plan is coming across as the Americans throwing everything at the board and seeing what sticks. I'm incredulous at all the clauses that see America profiting out of this, art of the deal.

    That the proposed ceding of Donetsk is framed as a land swap for territories held by the Russians in Kharkiv, Sumy, and Dnipropetrovsk makes it a little less bitter of a pill to swallow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,502 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    Funny how Russia is obsessed with Ukraine holding elections all the time.


    Hmmm I wonder why🤔



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,971 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    The only point I agree with there is the return of the children.

    50/50 electricity sharing? Wtf is that about?

    He’d have had better luck if they said lines frozen where they are and negotiate in the future rather than asking Ukraine to hand them over in full.

    The dangling carrot for Ukraine is the money for rebuilding.

    Why is Ukraine expected to hold elections? To install a pro Russian party?

    This is worse than Versailles. We have leaned **** all as a species.



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