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Northern Ireland 2125?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,217 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    I believe that poster said, "non-Unionist", as did you in your follow up. You've posted the Republican/Nationalist votes there but left out the non-aligned APNI (6.3%), NILP (1.6%) and others (0.2%).

    That'd be 37.9%....I wouldn't call that an awful lot less than 39% myself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    image-0f8d9d9c95f7-e885.png image-e611b4980a331-27d6.png

    the Alliance Party was initially formed in 1970 as a moderate and non-sectarian unionist party



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,068 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The Alliance's own history does not describe them as a 'unionist party'.

    Two leading NUM members, Oliver Napier and Bob Cooper, decided that a new cross-community party would represent the best alternative to the established parties which had not changed for the previous fifty years.

    Our History - Alliance Party



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    They were set up with people from across the community but still unionist with a small u. Everyone knows that.

    It is the 1970s we are talking about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,068 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    'They' themselves did not think so. It's there in their own history. You cannot be 'cross community and unionist at the same time. The Alliance always saw themselves as neutral on the constitutional question. How others saw them is not the issue.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    They were unionist, it is in their own history. They did not agitate for a U.I., and they accepted the majority of people in N.I. wanted to stay in the u.k.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    From wiki:

    The Party's founding principles were expressly in favour of Northern Ireland remaining part of the United Kingdom



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,068 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Again you remove the important context.

    Have at it.

    You have proved time and again you are an unreliable historian.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,217 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    I'd consider APNI's website a more reliable source than Wikipedia with regards to their history.

    Certainly I'd agree that in the 70s, a substantial amount of APNI voters were themselves small u, middle class Unionists, but that doesn't make APNI a Unionist party.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    And their website is consistent with their page on wiki

    "The Party's founding principles were expressly in favour of Northern Ireland remaining part of the United Kingdom"



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    Here is my post again verbatum:

    "Democratic vote?

    Non-unionist parties got 39% of the vote yet only 1 of the 12 seats!!"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    22+6.3+4.7+3.1+1.6+0.2 = 38% of the vote.

    I await the moving of the goalposts. (again)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,426 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    To me NI doesn’t seem to fit the broad definition of a “failed state” . That some from a certain political background claim it is.

    https://study.com/academy/lesson/failed-state-overview-characteristics.html#:~:text=Failed%20State%20Examples-,What%20is%20a%20Failed%20State?,of%20their%20lack%20of%20security.

    No regional conflict, political instability, trade embargo’s sanctions etc

    And most importantly for me NI has the only professional snooker tournament on the Island of Ireland.

    https://www.tntsports.co.uk/snooker/northern-ireland-open/2023-2024/northern-ireland-open-shaun-murphy-makes-plea-for-republic-of-ireland-to-return-to-snooker-it-s-a-sp_sto9853459/story.shtml

    Also on FIFA soccer rankings NI is 69th gradually catching up on the ROI who are currently ranked 62nd.


    Furthermore, NI leads the ROI when it comes to Golf Majors won and easily leads the per capita Major winners. 6 for NI , 5 for the ROI Not bad for a “failed state”.

    It looks like the “Fenian’s” only hope is for the “cailíni’’s” to have more babies than the “other crowd” over the next 100 years, Need 60 percent plus on that border poll. To be sure. Surprised SF doesn’t incentivise it, sure haven’t they plenty of money!?

    In India they are offering cows and cash to encourage families to have more children. Cash for.a girl, a cow for a boy.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-06-21/india-census-population-incentives-for-more-babies-delimitation/105359144

    Polygamy is another option of course.

    https://travelnoire.com/47-countries-where-polygamy-is-legal

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    You are including a unionist party in to that 39%, plus independents.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    So you want to designate the party that Jim Allister calls part of the "pan-nationalist front" as Unionist? 😂

    Even with that, that leaves 33% of non-unionist parties with 1 of 12 seats and the 67% unionist with 11 of the 12 seats.

    Democracy 1974 NI style!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    The Alliance Party is different now to what is was in the 70s, no doubt about that.

    Anyway, support for a united Ireland has not changed all that much since the 1970s, from what you say.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    The evidence that I have presented proves that within the divided 1974 population of the 6 counties where the vast vast majority of people identified as catholic & nationalist or protestant & unionist the so called democratic process was anything but democratic.

    A system in a state where 33% of the population are given 8% of the available seats is unsustainable and was proved to be so.

    I have not factored in the many amongst the population who refused to acknowledge at all the parliament for which the election was held.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    That is why the referendum in the early seventies was held in N. Ireland and most of the electorate voted to stay in the UK.

    The voting system is not unique in N. Ireland in being unfair to minorities. IF let's say there was a 15% spread of unionists throughout the 26 counties / they comprised 15% of the national vote, it is very likely not a single unionist TD would be elected / they would have 0% TDs.

    Post edited by itsacoolday on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    There's just no comparison at all with the 1974 electorate in NI and the current electorate in the 26 counties.

    But if you must ... the Labour Party got 4.6% of the votes at the last election and ended up with 11 seats.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    You are quite right. The minority in Northern Ireland had elected representatives and thrived in numbers. There is now a Republican first minister but she has never even spoke about changing the election system itself there. In places like Fermanagh South Tyrone, the MP is now republican even though a very sizeable minority do not want that. But the minority there now accepts that.

    Here in the Republic a minority needs a critical mass to elect someone who would speak out on behalf of a political minority, be they southen unionists or Muslims or whoever. It is why all TDs are nationalists who want Irish unity. In Co. Donegal for example where there is an O O parade each year, even IF say 10% were sympathetic to a unionist party, they would never have a hope in hell of getting a TD elected. They had a politician there in the mid twenties but I think he was kidnapped / intimidated not surprisingly.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    This utterly bizarre account overlooks the fact the minority in NI has elected representatives, and there is now a republican First Minister, because the electoral system was changed from the one in use in 1974.

    And then it goes on to criticise the electoral system in the Republic, which suggests that itsacoolday is unaware that the electoral system that he now considers to produce such democratic results in NI is the electoral system that has always been used in the Republic.

    I would struggle to believe that itsacoolday doesn't know these things, were it not for the fact that earlier in this thread he gave a glowing account of the benefits of the colonisation of Australia that entirely omitted any reference to the oppression, expropriation, dispossession and masssacre of the indigenous population, who to this day suffer profoundly from the consequences. And that, regular readers will know, was shortly after telling us that Britain had "defended the free world" in the Great War.

    I'm coming to the view that itsacoolday went to a British primary school in the 1950s, uncritically lapped up everything he was told, and has never opened a book since. It's very hard to explain his world-view any other way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    There was free and open voting in N Ireland in the mid seventies in N.Ireland, and in the border poll referendum a few years before that up there there was free and democratic voting too : everyone was entitled to a vote in the 73 referendum.

    As regards Oz, I did not say colonisation was perfect but someone was going to colonize the place. As you probably are not aware, the Dutch colonized Indonesia next door to Australia, a country with a bigger population that Australia. Which country do you think Irish people helped colonize most, and which country do you think has more Irish people working in their industries?

    N.b. during ww1 it was people from these islands who went to help defend Europe after Germany had invaded little Catholic Belgium and raped nuns there. Are you not glad someone fought the Germans in ww1 and ww2?

    Many neutral countries got invaded by Germany in ww2. To be fair, we would have been as well in time if the UK was not in the way. You'd have been OK with Irish Jews, gypsies, communists, disabled etc being led away to extermination camps and a lot of the rest of us put to hard labour as happened in Nazi occupied countries?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,068 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Another nail in the coffin for belligerent Unionism's veto attempt as the Dept Of Infrastructure publishes review:

    The review continued: "While the promotion of bilingual signage in BGCS (Belfast Grand Central Station) is considered as a potentially positive impact for those who understand, speak and/or appreciate the Irish language it in no way detracts or diminishes from the main language, which is English which will be available for those who do not understand, speak or appreciate the Irish language."

    The screening form said DfI has "carefully considered" the use of Irish language signage at Grand Central Station.

    "In this instance the general use of the Irish language in BGCS does not diminish the entitlements of those whose right to their British identity is guaranteed in the Good Friday Agreement," it added.

    "The use of bilingual signage on both Scotland and Wales public transport clearly demonstrates this point."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    You forget we've already discussed the 1974 elections results. There was free and open voting in an electoral system that grossly distorted the result, distributing seats in a way that bore no relationship to vote share. Having a free and open vote isn't such a big deal if the system doesn't weight all votes equally. The crapulous FPTP system isn't used for Assembly elections, which is why nationalists now get representation more nearly proportionate to their vote share.

    As regards Oz — your measure of the benefits of colonisation is how many Irish people work in the country today? Seriously? You seem determined to prove my point for me, so I'll let you at it. Tell us more, please!

    In both the Great War and the Second World War the UK fought in defence of its own interests; you are deluded if you imagine otherwise. I note you have abandoned the claim that in the Great War they were fighting "for the free world"; that's very wise of you. The claim that the Germans raped nuns in Belgium in 1914 is atrocity propaganda circulated in Britain in the early months of the Great War; it never happened, and this has long been known. But it does not surprise me in the least that you are ignorant of this.

    The claim that Nazi Germany would have invaded Ireland if Britain had not been in the way is an interesting one. Did someone tell you this, or did you just make it up?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    The border pole referendum in 1973 was open to all adults. Britain paid a heavy cost for fighting in ww1 and ww2 both in human and financial terms. Just as well someone did.

    Neutral countries were invaded by Germany in ww2. So would we in time If Britain was not in the way. The Jews, gypsies, communists, disabled etc in neutral countries Germany invaded got shipped to extermination camps. You would have been OK with that happening here?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The referendums conducted by Hitler were also open to all adults; do you hold them, too, out as a shining example of democracy? It takes a bit more than that.

    And, yes, Britain paid a high price fighting hbe Germans in the two world wars. Russia paid a much, much higher price, in both cases. What, exactly, is this supposed to prove about Britain and Russia?

    As for the invasion by Germany of neutral countries, you're simple repeating a paragraph from your earlier post that I have already responded to, with a question, which you ignore. I'm going to be charitable and assume that this was an oversight on your part; you didn't intend to repeat the paragraph.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    A referendum is a referendum, if it is open to everyone to vote and there is no cheating. Do you have a better way for a population to decide an issue? If there was a referendum on the Irish language on signs in east Belfast, it is unlikely you would get that controversial issue voted for in a referendum in N.Ireland IMHO, so perhaps a referendum would be the fairest on that issue.

    I made points about neutral countries tries being invaded by Germany in ww2. I do not think you know that happened.

    The primary plan for a Nazi invasion of Ireland was called Operation Green (or Fall Grün), developed in 1940 to support the invasion of Britain. Itnever came about because Britain won the battle of Britain. Even if there was no official plan Germany would have taken over Ireland if it won the war, because it always invaded neutral countries when it was in its interests to do so. And we had no defence really.

    Yes we all know the huge losses in Russia in ww2. The idea of war however is to lose as few people on your own side as possible. The UK learnt that the hard way after huge losses on the Somme etc in ww1. Incidentally Britain supplied a lot of arms and materials, boots etc to Russia via the arctic convoys. I know someone whose Dad was on one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,447 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The plan was never going to be out into action unless Ireland had requested assistance from Germany.

    This desperate whitewashing of British imperialism isn't very convincing.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Failed state wouldn't be reffering to the sports/acting/writing or any other entertainment ability of people who come from the jurisdiction.

    It is reffering to the jurisdiction itself to function normally. Prior to the GFA it was a gerrymandered apartheid state. Since the GFA stormont has nearly been collapsed for halve the time and there is still peace walls etc. Look how only few years ago they couldn't bring in gay marriage despite most people wanting from all backgrounds including the majority of MLA's and it not being a green/orange issue. It needed london to actually bring it in for NI. Even look today that they cant even bring in dual language sign posts like normal neighbouring jurisdictions or how they will miss out hosting euro 2028 matchs because there was so political weight against a suitable stadium being built big enough because it would be a themun stadium. It is still an abnormal jurisdiction



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    The 'ra did did ask assistance from the most racist murderous regime of all time, Nazi Germany. They sent Sean Russell over to Germany to beg for help, but even the Nazis had higher morals than the 'ra and they did away with Russell on a German submarine. The Nazis had much more respect for the English than Russell.

    The Germans and the British had some basic laws of armed combat. They generally respected prisoners of war for example. Certainly far better than the Germans did to the Russians or vice versa. And certainly much better than the Japanese did to their enemies. Also, both Germany and the UK had the military means to use gas on each other during ww2 but neither side did, certainly not in a meaningful way.

     

    Post edited by itsacoolday on


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