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2025 Nov 01 | AI's Round 1 | Ireland v New Zealand | 20:10 GMT | VM in Ire / TNT & Discovery+ in UK

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,899 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Stringer wasn't an elite, world class SH though, was he?

    If it's size you want why not stick in Furlong in as scrumhalf

    You can ignore a fundamental issue for Casey if you want, but that's the unfortunate reality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭Bart97


    Sure we do that and then people complain we aren’t giving youth a chance or building for 2027…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,952 ✭✭✭almostover


    Maybe not elite, but definitely good enough to play international rugby to a very high standard. And win 2 Heineken cups, a Grand Slam and a few triple crowns.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,899 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    He was fine, but was never included among the best of his era. A big part of that was his physical limitations. He wasn't a threat with the ball, and he was weak in the tackle. I like Casey, but he can't overcome his own biology.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,494 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    What is the acceptable size and weight for a 9 then for you, so we know?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 347 ✭✭thamus doku


    Whatever the Leinster 9 is , that’s the perfect height and size.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,940 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Dear me. That's awfully sad. Did you ever think about not posting that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,899 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Someone larger than Casey I'd say, unfortunately.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭Bart97


    And how would being 10 cm taller give Casey and extra edge at 9?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,952 ✭✭✭almostover


    According to Wikipedia, Casey is 76kg and Gibson Park is 80kg. Not a huge difference, maybe 5%. Gibson park is 10cm taller so theoretically he's less bulky. We're not privy to their gym stats so hard to know who is physically stronger.

    For reference Peter Stringer is listed as playing at 73kg. I myself am about 80kg and 5cm taller again than JGP, technically 'larger' and by God you wouldn't want me anywhere near a rugby pitch. Physical stats aren't very important for the scrum half position.

    None of these guys are Conor Murray or Mike Phillips. They have to rely on speed of delivery, accuracy of pass, kicking and a bit of pace to exploit poor fringe defence. If Casey is good enough at those facets of the game then his lack of physique is a moot point.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,952 ✭✭✭almostover


    Not to mention we've a no.10 vying for the starting shirt who's significantly larger than the man he's competing with for that position and yet he couldn't tackle a fish supper.

    Casey's physique isn't going to prevent him being the future at no.9. What he needs to be the man is his skills etc and decisin making being on point. He's somewhat unproven at the international level in that regard as of yet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,902 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    Craig Casey is a fan favourite because he's small and feisty. He's also a very good SH but he's not going to be the long term SH for Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,899 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I don't dislike Casey, but however you want to parse it, he's not of the standard to be a long term starter. He's a defensive weak point, much like Prendergast, but unfortunately for him, it's due to something he can't change. He's a speed bump, much the same way Stringer was. JGP is a much better defender



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,952 ✭✭✭almostover


    I agree with you for the most part, but just like Stringer, Casey could become a very useful no.9 despite his physical limitations. We're not exactly awash with options outside of JGP.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,899 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    No argument, and I think his game has come on massively. If we could smush him and McGrath together, we'd have a world class player.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,231 ✭✭✭50HX


    So you can have a 10 whose defensively weak & that's ok/manageable because its not a 10's primary function but a different set of rules apply to the scrum half?

    I don't think he's as defensively weak as portrayed last night...caught rotten for the try yes but wasn't alone in that.

    I wouldn't right him off yet...he needs a run eg a full 6N's to have a proper look.

    He's an excellent box kicker & prob fastest delivery if a ball by a 9 we have.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Dont see why theres such conversation about physical attributes of our 9s as thats the least of our worries. Casey is fine and his tackle tech and physicality is not an issue. we have more concerning problems like our lineout, our centres,

    we were playing a lot of guys in their 2nd game of the season against a well oiled machine of guys whove been in camp together for months played lot more together recently. now why we chose to play so many guys just barely back and clearly not up to speed with the season i dont know. 2 of our best performing guys were McCloskey and Baird who coincedently had played most or nearly the most out of our 23 yesterday



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 26,495 ✭✭✭✭phog




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,899 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    My point was that both are liabilities, but Casey's issues are due to the realities of his body, whereas Prendergast's are mental. One can potentially be overcome. Neither will be satisfactory as long term solutions if the issues go unresolved. We suffered defensively when we had Stringer and O'Gara playing together, and would suffer accordingly with Casey and Prendergast. You can generally get away with hiding one player in a defensive line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,122 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    Give the lad in Connacht a few games

    Its harder to get dropped from the Irish panel.

    It's a very conservative coaching ticket



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  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,079 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    fumi tanaka became a Japanese legend with 75 caps and was smaller than Casey.

    Aaron smith has only an extra 6 cm on casey but that didnt stop him becoming worlds best 9 for a number of years.

    Casey just has to learn to turn his size into a weapon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,952 ✭✭✭almostover


    Comically bad alright. I'm not buying the whole lack of gametime thing as an excuse. These are professional players and coaches.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,543 ✭✭✭JanuarySnowstor


    Wow such negativity about Casey and he didn't even start, appalling stuff really! I'm a Munster person and fan and it's not the heroic smaller guy we should be jumping on but the rather Large POC. Such a fan of his but the lineout has been suspect now for 3 years and he's their coach. Sorry Paul but it's not good enough!

    We're happy to hold on to Casey and Crowley in Munster and re prove ourselves again on the 27th Dec



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,238 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Some of my thoughts on that (bit of a tome);

    • The lineout has been a complete disaster for far too long at this stage. At times it's like the opposition have an almost perfect read on it. We're too often entirely missing a functional (let alone "good") primary attacking platform to play off. It has to be solved and, at this point, I feel that means POC has to be replaced.

    • We looked completely stale, and even when we were ahead, it had the feel of a loss to it; we just weren't playing well across the board. You just sensed NZ were going to come back into it, and their bench proved the difference. How much of that is down to - 1) Rustiness from an undercooked Ireland 2) the age profile of the team and / or 3) our exertion to keep in the game when down to 14 players (which we handled really well) - is all open to debate, but it's a huge worry at this point.

    • The attack needs a complete re-haul, imo. We're kicking way earlier on our phase play, which looks like it's by design (and doesn't suit Crowley's strength fwiw) but it's awful to watch and isn't as effective when we don't have Keenan on the pitch. Add to that, one of Goodman's strength is his set-piece attack, and without our lineout we're completely deprived of that.

    • The red card. For me it was a clear-as-day yellow. I understand the protocol the ref's have to go through, but when you hear "tucked shoulder, no wrap", I'd associate that way more with an Owen Farrel type tackle, than what Beirne did here which was way more passive and had a lower degree of danger. (All class from Beauden Barrett afterwards fwiw).

    • Some of Ringrose's defensive reads were way off, and costly, here, and he's not a creative force in our attack (which we more heavily rely on the wingers for).
      Let's hope it's just rustiness, but I think we have a real problem at centre brewing.

    • Crowley - No two ways about it, a poor performance from him. Not as bad as made out by some, but worse than his performance last year imo. His kicking from hand was a really big issue here, but I wouldn't be too critical of him for 1) the cross-field kick, it was very nearly on the money and 2) the run back after the Osborne spill; there were plenty there in support that should've cleared out that ruck. (On another day, Osborne takes that and is thru the gap). Interesting to see how what way Farrell goes with regards Japan, and indeed the other 2 Tests. (The comment earlier about Crowley looking great against Ospreys and Zebre is comical tbh…).

    • The reviews of the tries are gonna be pretty brutal for some of the players, Ringrose, Casey and VdF in particular.

    Of the few positives:

    • McCloskey was excellent in his time on the pitch, disappointed to hear of his injury at a time when I think he'd have been our starting 12.
    • Baird was excellent defensively at lineout time.
    • JGP started really well, kicking in particular, but faded / became more erratic as the game went on.
    • TOB went ok, but didn't come looking for work in the same way Hansen does. You'd have expected Hansen to take some of the play-making responsibility off Crowley if he was on the pitch. I actually think TOB was unlucky in the chip-kick from Crowley; I'd like to see it again, but I think Lakai could've been done for obstruction, he seems to look at TOB and not at the ball.
    • Conan possibly one of our better performers as well, but that's about it for positives, I think. The likes of Ryan, Porter, Sheehan were all various degrees of pretty quiet / anonymous here.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 31,506 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Wouldn't argue with any of that. Pretty much no one comes in looking for work off the wing as much as Hansen, so we will just have to accept a drop in that aspect any time he is not playing.

    I would hope JGP falling off in the second half was a gametime/rustiness thing.

    The ultimate problem is that we just couldn't score. I realise this sounds trite, but we were dominating that game everywhere but the score board until the 60th minute. But if you can't turn pressure into points…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 145 ✭✭Bart97


    Which is what’s likely to happen when you’ve no lineout and can’t secure you’re own ruck…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭budhabob


    TRK did a really good initial review of the match, both pre and post. His analysis is generally fantastic and removes alot of the provincial crap through strong data analysis.

    Ultimately, the data shows the Ireland system to be found out over the last 2-3 years, and the team as picked doesnt have the attributes to making it a winning system - but the coaching staff are also too conservative and view "familiarity with the system" as more important that having the attributes required. Hence the over use of Leinsters squad, which also negatively impacts leinster.

    Edit: I meant his analysis on this particular match when I referred to provincial crap, not his general Munster only focussed content.

    Post edited by budhabob on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,353 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Three Red Kings hosts a Munster fan podcast and wrote for the Examiner on Munster rugby. He's steeped in "provincial crap".

    Leinster players have been overused because they're the best this country has produced for the last 5/10 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭budhabob


    I am aware of this background and targeted audience - I for one pay for his content. His analysis of the Irish game was purely data specific on the game itself and over the last 2 years.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,940 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Sorry but what? 'Removes provincial crap' Seriously? It's agenda driven. Good grief.



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