Israel/Palestine Thread

I agree with all of that, but it's more a statement of principles, than an actual strategy.

FWIW I totally agree with you on those basic principles - and so do the heads of the IDF and Mossad, and several Israeli politicians, Gantz being just one example who resigned from the cabinet over disagreements about Netanyahu's policies.

For instance, the fact that Netanyahu has been worse than negligent in refusing to develop a "day after" strategy is a general view in Israel, apart from among the die-hard Bibi enthusiasts.

The argument that there is a strict limit to what a military response can achieve, and that this was achieved months back, is also well-known to be the opinion of the military chiefs - they were strongly against launching that latest (so far) Gaza City offensive for fear of getting bogged down in a guerilla war. But since Israel is not run by its army, unlike military dictatorships, and of course Gaza under Hamas, they did as they were instructed by the government.

But none of what you say above answers my question, because "obey the rules of warfare" doesn't go anywhere near the level of detail I was looking for. And most of it, as I say, I agree with anyway.

It's too long to go through all of it but for instance:

1. Set clear goals

Absolutely. That's been pointed out from the start.

(i) Focus on rescuing hostages and stopping immediate attacks -

How would they rescue the hostages though, without destroying Hamas as a military force? They've had 2 hostages in Gaza since 2014 - so do you mean a strategy spread over at least another decade? Is that a reasonable approach? I don't think so. Especially since Hamas said they would carry out more such attacks. Without destroying Hamas' ability to use Gaza as a military base from which to organise attacks on Israel, decades-long negotiations to free the hostages one by one against thousands of Palestinians, many convicted of murder or attempted murder would just further strengthen Hamas and weaken both the PA and Israel itself.

not on destroying Hamas entirely. That is not a valid military aim.

Could you say why not? I mean, obviously if by military aim you mean breaking down each action into its specifics, there is no single action which can have "destroy Hamas" as its aim, but that doesn't mean that destroying Hamas isn't a legitimate aim. It's a terrorist organisation. Wikipedia says the four stated objectives were:

"Israel's campaign has four stated goals: to destroy Hamas, to free the hostages, to ensure Hamas no longer poses a threat to Israel, and to return displaced residents of Northern Israel."

Which of those were illegal and by what measure?

(Impossible, perhaps, but not illegal, AFAIAA: here's a CNBC article from 2023 which quotes several foreign military specialists who are sceptical about whether Hamas can be destroyed - but not one of them says it's not a valid aim:

This policy lead to the destruction of Gaza, and left the lives of the hostages to chance.

As opposed to leaving them in Gaza for years, like Gilad Shalit? And then exchanging them for hundreds if not thousands of Palestinians, many/most of them actual terrorists like Yahya Sinwar?

The reality is that Israel had no good options there, and as you say, 20/20 hindsight is easy.

(ii) Keep objectives measurable and achievable without mass civilian harm.

Such as? I can't think of anything that they hadn't already been doing for years, to limited effect. As Oct 7th shows.

You know what they say about madness being to repeat the same failed strategy.

2. Use precise, intelligence-based operations

(i) Employ special-forces raids and verified-target strikes, not blanket bombing. The former is typical in hostage retrieval and anti terror operations, even in dense urban environments.

Again, Gilad Shalit, Avera Mengistu and Hisham al-Sayed would suggest that this is not a feasible approach for over 100 hostages!

(ii) Abort any strike where civilian casualties would outweigh the military value.

This is international law. Who decides how many civilian casualties that is, when Hamas themselves are using Gazan civilians as part of their military strategy? Is there a number?

3. Protect civilians and follow international law

(i) Create real safe zones and evacuation corridors with UN or Red Cross oversight. Do not force people force people into a non resourced area, then bomb it.

They say they didn't. But again, this is just international law and not a reply to my question.

The rest is similar and there is no point in me going through them all one by one when there is so much that you are assuming as fact that is unproven. Bombing hospitals for instance: those hospitals are now being openly used as Hamas centres to interrogate, ie torture, Gazan civilians. IOW exactly what the IDF said was happening, and if true, that would mean that they become a miltary target.

I'm not saying they definitely were, though I think there's strong evidence that they were - I'm saying that we agree on the basic principles, but that where we differ, you are basing your "answer" to me on suppositions rather than facts.

Similar for most/all of the below.

(ii) Allow humanitarian aid, fuel, and medical care from day one. Do not bomb all hospitals and then cause a famine.

(iii) Enforce strict rules of engagement and investigate every major incident independently. The world consistently sees Israel say they will investigate warcrime allegations, and nothing happens. Once trust is eroded....

4. Combine force with real diplomacy in prioritizing hostage release

(i) Work through Qatar, Egypt, and the UN for hostage talks and temporary ceasefires. Do not kill the envoys.

(ii) Pair limited military action with active negotiation, not isolation. Hostages are typically released through negotiations rather than military force.

(iii) Do not bomb negotiators in allied countries.

5. Choose lawful, responsible rhetoric

(I) Avoid dehumanizing or genocidal language; it signals intent and fuels genocide claims. Over 500 were submitted to the ICJ showing what can be perceived as clear intent.

(ii) Publicly emphasize protection of civilians and adherence to humanitarian law. Not quotes from leaders like "wipe Gaza off the map."

(iii) Discipline officials who use inflammatory or racist language. Gvir and Smotrich are regularly inciting genocide, yet still remain on power, which gives an image that their views are supported by government and those prosecuting the war.

6. Be transparent

(i) Allow journalists and aid workers into Gaza under protection, from day 1. Do not target media workers.

(ii) Admit mistakes honestly — credibility is strategic power.

(iii) Separate military briefings from propaganda.

(iv) Do not issue false or speculative statements (e.g., about targets, hospitals, schools, mosques, aid workers, paramedics or casualty numbers) - credibility lost will likely not be regained.

7. Uphold accountability

(i) Launch genuine independent war-crimes investigations immediately; prosecute where evidence exists. If hospitals/ schools need to be targeted etc, provide proof.

(ii) Facilitate UN and NGO observers who can independently report on civilian conditions and strike aftermaths. Openness reduces suspicion of cover-ups.

8. Plan for “the day after” from the start

(i) Coordinate with Arab and international partners on:

Reconstruction and aid
Interim governance under Palestinian or UN leadership
Demilitarization and elections for legitimate leadership.

This only happened under Trump, Israel's stated mission was to destroy Hamas and in turn Gaza.

(ii) Show the world there is a political and humanitarian endgame, not just endless destruction, lies and genocidal rhetoric

9. Communicate truthfully and humanely

(i) Express empathy for Palestinian civilians as well as Israeli victims. They are all innocent caught up in this, and it would go a long way

(ii) Use clear, factual language; let evidence speak louder than slogans. In the current scenario, as we see in this thread, evidence is the bane of Israeli propaganda and lies. I lost trust along time ago, and will even mistrust them when they tell the truth. Credibility is zero.

(iii) Release evidence publicly (videos, coordinates, battle damage assessments) - after verification - to avoid later contradictions. This does not happen as whole neighborhoods get levelled.

(iv) Had they fought this war differently, transparency and humanity would have been possible to communicate, and would have preserved Israel's moral authority and global support after October 7th. But the road they went down was to destroy everything, mass killing civilians, cause a famine, and then accuse critics/ NGOs/the UN of being in Hamas or antisemetic, destroying the capital they had.

(I do agree that not allowing journalists in is wrong, and IMO counterproductive. If this ceasefire lasts, they won't be able to continue that for much longer. However there is plenty of evidence that even foreign media in Gaza has long had to obey Hamas' instructions as to what they could publish, so independent coverage is a problem anyway.)

I don't know how anybody on here (who isn't secretly just relishing Muslims being killed) could honestly argue that a smarter and more humanitarian path wasn't possible: precision over punishment, truth over propaganda, diplomacy over blanket bombs, accountability over slander, law over vengeance, planning over chaos.

That approach could have saved thousands of lives, protected hostages, and preserved Israel’s legitimacy instead of isolating it.

But you haven't explained how that could be done before the deaths of most of the hostages, given that only THREE hostages were kept in Gaza for years, and in the case of Shalit, exchanged against the release of 1000 Palestinian convicts, one of whom went on to organise the Oct 7th invasion. Surely it's obvious that from an Israeli point of view, doing the same for 130 hostages would be a potential existential threat to Israel itself? Even as it is, many of the Palestinians they released in the ceasefires pose an obvious risk to Israel.

So your answer comes down to "they should have continued doing more of the same". I think that in the shock of Oct 7th, that wasn't a feasible approach for the Israeli government. Their own population demanded a far more active approach.

PS I just noticed this:

(who isn't secretly just relishing Muslims being killed)

Seriously? WTAF?

Israel bumping up their propaganda campaign. I don't know to what purpose. The more you'd see of them, the more you'd despise them…

"The Israeli government plans to offset wartime spending and an economic slowdown with tax hikes and deep cuts to public services. But the proposed budget for 2025 also includes a massive new allocation: toward pro-Israel advocacy efforts abroad.

Under the new budget, Israel’s Foreign Ministry will receive $150 million, on top of what it gets for its existing activities, for what’s officially known as public diplomacy, or in Hebrew, hasbara. That sum is more than 20 times what such efforts have typically been allotted in past years."

Oh look now, whitewashing of Hamas.

Oh look, displaying one’s ignorance while pontificating.

So Israel can veto any country it likes, pointless!

Just think. If they were a pro Israel influencer they would have just earned $42,000.

8 words in a row, is that a record?

well this looks like some development

And the US can veto any court order also from the sound of it, because UNRWA is Hamas despite proven not to be.

Looks like Indonesia has lost it's bid for the Olympics, fair play to them for not bending the knee and sticking to their principles.

https://caitlinjohnstone.com.au/2025/10/22/zionists-push-islamophobia-because-its-easier-than-getting-people-to-like-israel/

We’re seeing more and more of this as Israel increasingly alienates western centrists and progressives, relying more and more heavily on support from the western right. As the narrative that a poor persecuted religious minority needs to have its own homeland loses traction with its intended audience, we’re seeing it increasingly replaced with the narrative that them there Muslims need killin’, yeehaw.

Israel makes everything gross. It makes the world more violent, more sociopathic, and more hateful. The entire state is sustained by nonstop violence and hatred. It’s a malignant tumor on the flesh of our species.

“Moreover, the police no longer exist as an independent force. It has turned into a private militia in the hands of the government in general, and specifically in the hands of the fascist extremist and convicted terrorist Itamar Ben-Gvir. On top of that, there are private armed militias of fascists just waiting for an order - and once they get it, whether from (National Security Minister) Ben-Gvir, Netanyahu, or others in this gang, they will do everything they can to prevent Palestinian and leftist citizens from voting. So, I expect elections that will not be fair.”

Very likely that inner turmoil in Israel is what will bring them down in the end.