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Northern Ireland 2125?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    I never said roads have to be festooned at all with flags. In fact I would prefer if they were not.

    My point is that Ireland is already included by St. Patricks Saltire in the Union flag, so we are included in the flag if and when it is ever flown anywhere.

    Also, I said Republicans just want Irish signs in unionist areas not for linguistic reasons . 

    not for practical reasons to give people directions - the purpose of a sign after all but to

    taunt.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,138 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Is there another jurisdiction in the world where residents of a street get a say about what is on a roadsign?

    Only in NI, where everyone has to tiptoe around because a few old supremacists might get upset by looking at a sign.

    Whenever they cut the Irish out of a sign they should be made safe and left there with the hole in it as a monument to the bigotry that resides there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    Whataboutery as usual from Ulster folk. I'd say the money the OO gets is a drop in the ocean compared to what is spent on the Irish language on the island.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,406 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    "I'd say" meaning here "I haven't bothered to find out either figure because I don't actually care"?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,138 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    It isn't, it is though a simple question:

    Does the 'that money would be better spent on ________' policy apply across the board or just to projects you hate?

    An answer would be nice.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,406 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    And the people who are destroying the signs are also not doing it for linguistic reasons, or for any practical reasons about giving people directions. They only want one tradition represented on the signs — they are offended if both traditions are.

    If they find the expression of both traditions a "taunt" — well, maybe that says more about them than it does about the people who favour the expression of both traditions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    The purpose of a sign is togive directions or the name of a place. If I meet a lost tourist looking at a map on Grafton St Dublin and he asks me what street is he on, I'll say Grafton Street. Even in Dublin, nobody knows it by any other name anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,138 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    This is just invented objection.
    Tourists, in my experience love to see the history of a place they are visiting and the name and it's source is a valuable thing.

    I.E.
    Belfast - means nothing,
    Béal Feirste - /Béal meaning mouth and Feirste or Farsaid meaning inlet or sand bank ford. The sand bank ford was the crossing place or stretch on the Lagan which linked the modern County Antrim and County Down.

    Not going to appeal to lads over for a stag night but the general 'tourists' visiting a place want and revel in info like that and want to experience the local culture and heritage.

    Lads running around with angle grinders abusing and threatening folk…not so much an attraction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    If a tourist was lost on grafton street Dublin, would you give them the name of Grafton st as gaelige? Whatever it is in Irish? Do not be stupid.

    You just want to taunt the unionists by weaponizing the language and then putting it in unionist areas, on street names where it never was before.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,406 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    And how does grinding off the Irish version of the sign make it easier for you to give directions, or for the tourist to follow them? As long as the sign contains the English version of the name, its utility for following directions given in English is not impaired by having the Irish name as well. If it also contains the Irish version, its utility is potentially enhanced, since it can then be used in conjunction with directions given in either language. Plus, as Francie points out, it supports other functions which the sign may have.

    The vandalising of bilingual signs has nothing to do with making the signs more useful for giving directions. Don't insult your own intelligence and ours by pretending to think that it does.

    (As might be expected, given the prevalence of bilingual traffic signs and street names in many countries, there has been much study internationally into the effect of bilingual signage on ease of navigation, road safety, etc. The conclusion is that there is no adverse effect, and potentially some beneficial effect. I realise that this information, just like information about the amounts of money devoted to various cultural purposes, probably doesn't interest you, but you should at least understand and accept that it does interest people whose job it is to make and implement public policy about road signage.)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,138 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Yes, I could tell the tourist to look out for signs that say 'Sráid Grafton'.

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    But if they were in the middle of a street with no signs visible, would you give the Irish name or the name everyone calls it by? Sometimes the Irish name is quite different.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    The grafton st sign is fine. The more confusing ones are on the streets in east Belfast where the Irish langauge is of equal prominence / size to the English language name. Even though nobody speaks Irish there and just associates it as a taunting symbol of Republicanism. I rest my case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,138 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    If they had time and I had, I would tell them as much as I could.

    Tourists love that stuff and if I am abroad I love to see that stuff visible and available, as much as possible.
    It's an extremely valuable tourist commodity - heritage and history.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Making Irish an EU language will be a long-term own goal of the movement to preserve the Irish language.

    Irish language graduates now head to Brussels and Strasbourg to become highly-paid translaters and interpreters. Meanwhile, the supply of Irish language teachers to educate the next generation is seriously depleted. Even in Irish language schools, the ability to teach through Irish is a big struggle in many subjects.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,138 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Familiar hijacking of a general teacher shortage crisis to vent your anti- Irish language spleen.

    With multiple Gael Scoileanna opening in the last decade and the achievement of language rights I think they will be able to weather the storm of some grads facilitating another huge achievement at EU level



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The number of Irish language graduates is not sufficient to meet the demand.

    Points have dropped over the last few years, with many of the courses in the range of 300-350 points.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,138 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    So your last ditch argument is that this is 'confusing'? Really?
    Not looking for detail here but approximately, how often have you travelled abroad?



    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,138 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    As part of a general teacher shortage.

    Your 'you'd better watch out' scaremongering is just that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Ostrich in the sand-type response.

    There is huge concerns in universities about the lack of demand from Leaving Cert students for Irish language courses and the destinations of graduates. Watch this space as over the next two to three years, this will become a subject for public discussion.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,138 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    There are huge concerns about teacher availability in general and it’s part of a broader structural problem in the education system.

    Yet another area stripped off resources and crucial investment by guess who?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The concerns aren't as significant as you think and not for the reasons you suggest.

    Continual improvement in the pupil/teacher ratio, as funded by the government over the last decade has led to an increased demand for teachers. Supply initially didn't keep pace, but has risen in recent years to meet the demand. This has happened to the extent that the unions are starting to complain once again that there are not enough permanent jobs for teachers.

    There remain some structural problems in a number of areas

    (1) Special need primary teachers: Again, substantial investment by the government in special needs education has not seen a concomitant rise in supply to date. That is changing with increased numbers of teachers in training focussed on this area.

    (2) Science/maths at second level remains a problem, due to the huge demand in the economy for science graduates, again thanks to the success of the government in creating jobs.

    (3) Irish at second level, and in Gaelscoileanna for the reasons I have explained, no demand from Leaving Certs for these subjects.

    Funding of primary and second-level education has never been higher, resources have never been greater. An additional factor to note is that we should see some demographic gains over the next decade, certainly at primary level, where the peak numbers have just passed through.

    Of course, none of the above facts will counter an uninformed rant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,640 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    So that is your justification in streets in East Belfast to force the Irish language - associated with Republicanism there - on to residents who do not want it? The Irish language is not part of the culture of East Belfast. Would'nt it be sad if every place was the same anyway.

    On the way to Dublin airport, I pass signs for Dublin airport , not aerport Baile Atha Cliath or something, and if anyone asks me where I am going or flying from, I tell them it is Dublin airport. That is the name of the airport. As far as 99.99% of people are concerned it is not aerport Baile Atha Cliath.

    No need to confuse people, especially tourists. Life can be confusing enough in unfamiliar places anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,138 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Another party political broadcast there.

    The findings of this survey paint a deeply concerning picture of an enormous crisis in our primary and special schools. The shortage of teachers, especially in urban areas, continues to grow, and the heavy reliance on unqualified staff is an alarming development. Unless immediate action is taken, particularly to address the housing and living cost pressures in Dublin and other urban centres, this crisis will only worsen. We must act now to ensure no child is regularly being left without a qualified teacher throughout their primary schooling.

    School leaders are under extreme pressure, and the chronic shortage of teachers is severely impacting their ability to manage their schools effectively on a daily basis. They often have no option when mainstream classes are without teachers but to redeploy Special Education Teachers, thereby compromising the specific supports for children with additional needs. This appalling situation looks set to continue until government ensures that Ireland has an adequate supply of teachers.

    The scale of the problem now requires a whole-of-government response.

    This week the INTO will meet with UNESCO who are coordinating a new research project focused on strategic planning for teachers in Ireland. We will be demanding once more that a national teacher supply commission should be established, tasked with finding real solutions to the teacher supply crisis, focusing on financial incentives, job stability and career progression.

    Government must take immediate action to increase the number of places on initial teacher education courses by at least 300 places per annum, until the crisis is resolved.

    *bolding mine

    Another Year of Crisis in Recruitment and Retention Revealed by Primary School Survey - Irish National Teachers' Organisation



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    No, what you have quoted is a party political broadcast. Union representing teachers looks for more jobs for teachers and better terms for teachers.

    A basic dichotomy at the heart of their position is that the claim that unqualified teachers (who are paid less than qualified teachers) are being employed because higher paid qualified teachers cannot afford to live beside the schools.

    In reality, the two problems are supply of qualified special needs teachers which I already identified and Leaving Cert kids not wanting to study Irish (affects the Gaelscoileanna in south Dublin).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,640 ✭✭✭Francis McM




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,138 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    No I posted a rebuttal of your pro FF FG government broadcast from the profession itself.

    The issues are wide ranging but of course your anti-Irish spleen had to try and hijack that to vent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,138 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    No need to confuse people, especially tourists. 

    Maybe if the tourists you are attracting are the lathered in sun cream and lying on a beach for two weeks in a place that serves all day English/Irish breakfasts types, that makes sense.

    But the type of tourist who wants to investigate the heritage and culture of a place will hugely appreciate seeing the local language original names of places.
    Holes burned in signs with angle grinders - not so much.

    Go on and tell us what specifically is 'confusing' about this?

    image.png

    or this one in Scotland

    image.png

    or this one in France

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,640 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Any signs with holes burned in them can be replaced with the original, traditional signs which should have been left alone.

    Talking about costs for the Irish language, who is going to pay for all the Irish language in schools , documentation etc in the case of a U.I.? You could hardly have a situation where someome in Dundalk has to study Irish in school every year he is in school, but someone in Newry would not have to? And in the event of the hypothetical glorified socialist Republic of a U.I., Queens would look for competency in Irish for admission, same as UCD does?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,138 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




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