Brian Harman provisional ball rule

prawnsambo · 18-10-2025 08:11AM #1

On the first tee (3rd round), Brian Harman hit his tee shot into the jungle on the left. He then hit a provisional ball (3rd shot) which also went into the jungle. After searching in vain for both balls, he went back to the tee and hit what was again his third shot.

There was no adequate explanation as to how this wwasn't his 5th from the tee. Harman ended up with a bogey on the hole.

badabing106 · 18-10-2025 08:23AM

The key here is that the "jungle" was designated as a penalty area on the course (common in tournaments like the Hero Indian Open or similar events in India, where dense vegetation is often marked red or yellow stake).

Under golf rules (Rule 17 for penalty areas and Rule 18.3 for provisionals):

Harman's first tee shot (stroke 1) went into the penalty area.

He played a provisional (conditional stroke 3) in case it was lost outside the penalty area.

Upon searching, the original ball wasn't found, but it was known or virtually certain (KVC) to be in the penalty area (based on trajectory, conditions etc, rules officials).

Because it was KVC in the penalty area, the provisional ball was immediately abandoned (its strokes don't count).

Harman then took relief under the penalty area rule (Rule 17.1d), choosing the stroke-and-distance option: add one penalty stroke and replay from the tee.

This made his next tee shot stroke 3

zimmermania · 18-10-2025 08:40AM

simple really,the rules of golf are not easy to understand but they are the rules,the one that gets me as a golfer is when one is allowed a drop (free or not) the ball can be on a totally different surface after the drop I.e one is in the rough before the drop and on the fairway after the drop because a club length may be allowed in which the ball may be dropped.

prawnsambo · 18-10-2025 08:55AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123915011#Comment_123915011

Thanks. Either I missed it, or they didn't say, but I didn't know it was a penalty area.

Makes sense now.

blue note · 18-10-2025 09:36AM

I didn't think you were allowed to play a provisional when it might be in a hazard unless there was a local rule. and this is a perfect example of why.

billy3sheets · 18-10-2025 11:00AM

How come it wasn't KVC originally though? Was it declared KVC as a result of the search? That seems dodgy to me!

Dayor Knight · 18-10-2025 07:10PM

You can't be sure from the tee whether it's in a hazard or not, so it makes sense to play a provisional. When you get there if it's kvc in a hazard you continue on that basis. That's quite possible.. . E.g. Ball goes over a mound, nothing there apart from hazard or fairway ....

downthemiddle · 18-10-2025 09:32PM

He hit a provisional in case the first ball was lost. He found the first ball and declared it unplayable ( the provisional is now redundant). He then took penalty of stroke and distance for the first ball.

billy3sheets · 18-10-2025 09:32PM

But sure if it's deemed to be in the hazard, a drop at the hazard is the next step?

spacecoyote · 18-10-2025 09:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123917083#Comment_123917083

You can always go back to original position for a shot into hazard

Golfgraffix · 19-10-2025 08:29AM

I’m pretty sure he found the 1st ball

blue note · 19-10-2025 09:15AM

But under what circumstances would his provisional have been in play? He found the first so that's in play - fine. If he didn't find it he wouldn't know if it was lost in the hazard or not, so he couldn't play the provisional and he's back to the tee again.

If you can't see where your ball goes, fair enough, play a provisional. But if it turns out the only place the ball can be is in the hazard, then the provisional is not play.

fungie · 19-10-2025 12:37PM

This is a common gotchya with a lot of people or many people abuse the rules to their advantage.

If you hit first ball and you are unsure if ball went in hazard, say there's long grass before hazard which could be where the ball is, you're perfectly entitled to play a provisional. But by doing this, you're saying (from tee at least) that you aren't certain or virtually certain (95% sure on an arbitrary scale) that ball is in hazard, you essentially need to find the ball in hazard to be able to take red/yellow penalty relief, otherwise, you should play the provisional.

billy3sheets · 19-10-2025 05:19PM

But let's say the grass is not too long. The ball rolled towards the water but you saw no splash. You hit your provisional on the green. You have a look for your first ball but don't find it. If at that point it is virtually certain it's in the hazard, playing your provisional gives a serious but dubious advantage.

bobster453 · 19-10-2025 09:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123919249#Comment_123919249

How does it give an advantage?

You are playing 4 from position of provisional ball.

Other option is to walk back to the tee which isnt an option imo

Trampas · 19-10-2025 09:13PM

Not the same but I’ve a vague memory of Phil Michelson hitting ball into trees and smashing a provo down the middle and didn’t want people going looking for his original

The Big Easy · 19-10-2025 09:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123920096#Comment_123920096

Not saying it didn't happen but that sounds so unlike Phil, possibly the greatest recovery player since Seve!

Trampas · 19-10-2025 09:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123920114#Comment_123920114

it was in the jungle and not just a hack out

billy3sheets · 19-10-2025 09:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123920065#Comment_123920065

Don't play the provisional, you're playing 3 with the water still to be crossed?

bobster453 · 20-10-2025 08:08AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123920217#Comment_123920217

How, by dropping another ball?

If so the water was a hazard and not out of bounds so no need to have played a provisional in the first place, you just drop one for a penalty and then play third shot.

If the water is out of bounds you must play the provisional ball off the tee anyhow.

Once the provisional has been hit, if the original ball cant be found, it becomes the ball in play.

You cant just ignore it and decide to drop one out of your pocket and play on..tho i am sure there are those who would.

billy3sheets · 20-10-2025 05:26PM

Nobody mentioned OOB! It's not part of the discussion here.

It hinges around when you decide a ball is in the hazard or KVC.

If you decide after taking your shot, then you can't play a provisional. It's a retake or a drop with 1 shot penalty.

If you are undecided after taking your shot, you can hit a provisional. Then when you decide after a search that it's is in the hazard or KVC, it seems a bit optional what you do next - play your provisional if it is well positioned or take a drop/retake if you don't like the provisional so much.

bobster453 · 21-10-2025 10:04AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123922452#Comment_123922452

Fair enough.

If it red or yellow staked i would never play a provisional from where the original ball was played, i would check first if it was in the hazard or kvc and if so take penalty and play on from the hazard with 2 club length drop.

Why do anything else?

billy3sheets · 21-10-2025 06:04PM

Yeah, it's a tricky one. I'd normally do the same. However, just last week I hit a shot over the water on the 8th in St Margaret's. I thought I'd pulled it left into some rocks bounding the hazard but wasn't sure if maybe I had cleared them so I hit a provisional onto the green. Turns out my original probably had hit those rocks but had bounced onto the back of the green so I was able to play it.

Should I have played a provisional though or should I have declared kvc? Turns out kvc would have been wrong!

REFLINE1 · 21-10-2025 06:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123920114#Comment_123920114

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/rules-of-golf-review-can-i-declare-a-ball-lost

Think this is the drama in question!

Brian Harman provisional ball rule

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