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Landlords cannot request "vacancy" before selling their property now, is this correct?

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Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,290 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    The same way a home owner leaves the house for organized viewings.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭Traumadoc


    I would not buy a house with tenants in situ, if I want to make it my family home for example.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,074 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The landlord is the person who owns the property. You can't grant a lease of property that someone else owns.

    If the wife owns two properties and the husband owns two properties, then they'll both be small landlords. So if the wife with four properties wants to be a small landlord she can gift (or sell) one or more of them to her husband (or, for that matter, to anyone at all). Then she'll be a small landlord.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,074 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    If you want to have a stable rental sector, then you want a market in which rental properties are bought and sold without the tenants being evicted. Logically, a buyer seeking an investment property should prefer one with sitting tenants; he wants an asset that generates an income and, lo, here is an asset that is currently generating an income. Why attack the very characteristic that identifies this as an investment property by evicting the tenant?

    And, from a societal point of view, it's clearly a good thing that investors in property should be able to realise their investment without the tenants being evicted.

    Commercial property is routinely bought and sold with sitting tenants; why should this not happen with residential property also?

    What you exclude (or, at least, discourage) here is prospective purchasers who wish to occupy the property themselves. But that's something you have to be willing do to, if you want a stable rental sector. And, with the price of houses the way it is, we need a stable rental sector, because there's a larger and larger chunk of the population who will likely never be able to afford to buy.

    Does this depress the value of rental property? Not necessarily; if the value is derived from its investment value, discouraging prospective owner-occupiers shouldn't depress the price of the house, since prospective investors will still be valuing it based on its qualities as investment property, and they will still be competing with one another to buy the property.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,316 ✭✭✭Iscreamkone


    The only place where a landlord declares to government that they are the landlord is on the RTB form.
    Who/How will they police the small landlord/big landlord situation?



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,290 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Of course not. But that wasn’t the question. The question was how viewings can take place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,074 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    You're suggesting people will just lie to the RTB?

    That would be stupid. Property ownership records are publicly accessible, and if you lie to the RTB, claiming not to own a property that you do own, or to own a property that you don't own, in order to evade your obligations that's going to be very easy to detect and prove.

    How does it come to light? It probably doesn't until (a) the landlord does something that only a small landlord is supposed to do, and (b) a tenant objects. Even if the tenant doesn't know that the landlord is in reality a large landlord, this is the kind of fraud that comes to light almost immediately anyone starts to look critically at the situation.

    The other possibility for this fraud coming to light is if people realise that some landlords are doing this in order to evade the regulations. The RTB could easily adopt a routine practice of checking property details in registration applications against the Táillte Éireann database, and querying registration applications where people are claiming to be the landlords of properties that they don't own.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭JVince


    UK house stagflation is primarily caused by high interest rates. Currently the average standard variable rate is over 6% with steadily increasing rates since 2022 - which just happens to coincide with your timeline.

    The monthly cost of a £300,000 mortgage over 30 years has jumped 40% in the UK (av 3.1% 2022, av 5.8% 2025). Mortgage rates started to fall late last year - almost in tandem with reported price increases in the market.

    As for the main query - yes new rules will mean that unless the tenancy has ended or the tenant voluntarily vacates, it would have to be sold with the tenant in situ - exactly as it is in normal commercial property transactions.

    Yes, it means the accidental landlords or the speculative landlords don't have the same flexibility, but for professional landlords its not an issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,492 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    To be completely fair, even if the husband and wife own 8 properties between them and tried to argue that 2 lettings on the same land were the same property, they'd still be fairly small scale by comparison to the big landlords the govt wants to target.

    Below article is from 2022 so it wouldn't surprise me if Ires Reit haven't surpassed the 4,000 properties mark. Did they ever get away with their "common area fee" anti-RPZ sneakiness does anybody know?

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-ten-biggest-landlords-now-own-17000-homes/41339550.html

    Didn't Airbnb pass a load of data on to revenue a few years ago for taxation purposes? There is no reason the RTB wouldn't be able to do the exact same. I should add that I highly doubt they will do anything of the sorts as you are likely going after very small time landlords without much financial gain for the state



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,074 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Well, the Revenue have data on residential income from tax returns anyway. But (a) they wouldn't share this with the RTB, and (b) because of the facility for joint assessment the question of who is assessed to income tax on the rental income doesn't necessarily correlate very reliably to who owns the property.

    Suppose a husband and wife did in fact own two properties each, and elected for joint assessment. All the Revenue would know (or care) about is the aggregate rental income; they wouldn't care how much income came from each property or which of the couple owned each property. Thus even if the RTB did know that a couple was declaring income from four properties between them, that still wouldn't tell them whether the couple represented one large landlord or two small landlords.

    But it doesn't matter. There is no need to try to get access to revenue records so that you can try to infer from those how many properties a landlord owns, when you can get the information directly from the land title records maintained by Táillte Éireann.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭The Student


    Seriously do you think the bank rules will have to change. In case you have not realised banks are in business to make money. If the bank can't enforce its security on a property in cases of default in mortgage payments do you think they will just "suck it up"!

    If you want the above then you have to change the eviction process to be more efficient and balanced. If you want a professional rental sector it needs balance. Giving one side priority over the other.

    I find your "the most important thing is the tenants are protected" very odd. Just out of curiosity who do you think should "protect" the tenants?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭The Student


    It does devalue the value of a property based on the Rent pressure zones. If you can only increase by 2% and inflation is greater your "real income" is falling.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,074 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    There's nothing in the new rules that stops the banks enforcing their security on a property in a case of default in mortgage payments. It's already the case that a bank doing this will find itself enforcing its security over a property in which there is a sitting tenant — that happened a lot in 2008 and the following years.

    Having foreclosed on a tenanted propety, the bank then faced the decision — do we just sit on the property and collect the rent, and set it off against the mortgage debt, or do we sell the property and set the proceeds off against the mortgage debt? Or do we do the first until we feel the time is right to do the second? And that's exactly the set of options they would have under the new rules.

    The difference, of course, is that under the new rules the bank couldn't evict the tenant to sell the property — if they decided to sell, they'd sell with the tenant in it. But, assuming there are people looking to invest in residential property, there's no reason why those people would refuse to buy a property with a sitting tenant. If anything, it should be more attractive to them than a vacant property, since they don't have the trouble and expense of finding a tenant, and the absence of rental income until they do. And they've got a tenant whose track record of paying rent on time is known.

    You could also point out that, from a societal point of view, it's not a good thing that tenants can be made homeless because their landlord is insolvent. Why should the tenant have to bear the risk of the landlord's financial woes, in order to protect the bank which, let's face it, is much better positioned to manage that risk than the tenant is?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,492 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Yes the banks rules will need to change that silly rule when this law comes into effect as otherwise they won't be giving out as many mortgages and those that they do give out will be of much lower value. Both of which will hurt their profit margins

    The eviction process for bad tenants (those who don't pay rents etc) is deeply deeply flawed there is nobody doubting that. That shouldn't get in the way of the good tenants housing requirements

    The protection of the tenants has to be enshrined in law because you can bet your own mortgage that money grabbing landlords aren't going to protect the tenants



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,074 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Yeah, but the new rules which forbid evictions for sale will also allow landlords to mark the rent to market every six years. This isn't that different from commercial leases, where the practice is to mark to market every five years. And tenanted commercial properties are easily saleable.

    So, long term, rents will now move with the market; that's a huge change. And you have to take that into account when considering the value to be attributed to investment properties and, therefore, the effect of not allowing eviction for sale.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭Traumadoc


    That's the problem for me , Asking for a family to make the place as neat and tidy so I can show someone around, possibly on multiple occasions.

    If I was to sell any of my properties, I would want them vacant to maximise the sale price.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭Yeah Right


    This isn't the same at all, fyi………Tenants are under no obligation to vacate anyone's property to facilitate viewings. A home owner will do so willingly, as its in their own best interests for the viewings to take place, but a tenant is well within their rights to say "no, you can wait until the lease is up and I've left". The landlord can request access (for pretty much any reason) but the tenant can refuse (also for pretty much any reason).



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,290 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Best scenario is vacant possession.
    But you don’t do multiple viewings.

    It’s usually a 30 minute slot every second week for 3 viewings in my experience. Obviously different estate agents will differ in their process.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭The Student


    Can you honestly see that a new rule will not come in within the six years restricting the ability for landlords to reset the rent. How many changes have we seen just in the last couple of years.

    Landlords have lost trust in the Govt, the Govt is continually changing the "rules of the game" to suit themselves and their agenda. All the Govt is doing is "kicking the can down the road" trying to buy themselves time. Most likely some existing senior ministers will have retired before the six years have elapsed so wont have to worry/care about it.

    Landlords have been vilified in the media. Remember the vast majority of landlords are your ordinary PAYE/Self employed person. Some are accidental landlords etc. Don't get me wrong there are a small number of bad participants on both sides be they rogue landlords/tenants.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭The Student


    The protection of housing people is enshrined in law via the Constitution where the State has a responsibility to house its people. Note it is the State that has the responsibility not the private citizen to fulfil the States role.

    If you want to challenge the right of the individual to property ownership this will need to be done via the Constitution and I guarantee you it will never happen. There are more private owners of property in Ireland than there are not.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭The Student


    The banks are banks not landlords. A mortgage to whomever be it a home owner or a landlord is a business trans nothing more nothing less. From a business perspective a landlord selling will look to achieve the highest sale price and in these times thats to owner occupiers and with this the bank requires vacant possession to give a mortgage.

    To counter your point of how should a tenant be made homeless because of the landlord becoming insolvent you could then argue why should a person be made homeless if a commerical landlord becomes insolvent!

    You have to draw the line at some point, we can't give everyone what they want, life is not fair.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭Yeah Right


    Three? Last time I rented out my place before selling it, I put the ad up at noon, roughly, on a Friday. I had to take it down before 9pm that night as I had over 150 people interested in attending a viewing. We had a couple of no-shows, but it was over 140 who came to the open viewing between 10am and 2pm the following Wednesday. At your rate, it would have taken me 47 weeks to get through them. And this was in 2018, lord knows what it's like nowadays. Three viewings per week seems ridiculously small.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    I'm guessing they mean 3 open viewings, not 3 at a time. Every house we went to view had 2 or 3 open sessions for viewing the house.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,290 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    30 minute open viewing every second week generally. Usually 3 viewings depending on interest. Sometimes it’s 3!Saturday’s in a row, sometimes it’s not.

    These are houses I’ve sold by the way, not rented out. Any rentals have been done by word of mouth thankfully. Never had to put an ad up and deal with the shite that comes with that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39 thenuisance


    There seems to be no comeback for lying to the RTB. We've a dodgy landlord near us - we reported him (to the RTB) for not being on the RTB list. Something must have been done as his properties appeared on the list. Then another neighbour noticed that the number of units listed was far less than were in the building i.e. just 1 per property - even the number of bells gave that away - and reported that - nothing has been done on that front. Apparently his tenants pay cash.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,230 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Like commercial property, residential property can be bought and sold with tenents in situ, I never said it coudn't.

    However, the owner of the property should be able to get the best return on the sale of their property. It's their property afterall. This requires vacant posession.

    A property's value is derived from the demand for said property. That demand could be as an investment opportunity, it could be an owner occupier opportunity, it could be both simultaniously. Remove one, you decrease the damand. It's a simple numbers game, not sure why some folks aren't getting it.

    Situation 1, property is vacant: three bidders, two investors and one would be owner occupier.

    Bidder A - investor has a max bid of 100k

    Bidder B - another investor has a max bid of 110k

    Bidder C - a potential owner occupier, has a max bid of 120k

    Property sells for 120k

    Situation 2: tenant in situ who will not be leaving - there are only two bidders, as the would be owner occupier can't live in the property if they buy it, so it's no use to them.

    Bidder A - investor has a max bid of 100k

    Bidder B - another investor has a max bid of 110k

    Property sells for 110k.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,061 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    The issue for landlords is that as partIV tenancy overrides everything the only way to get vacancy is to remove tenants. Offering to rent a property for X number of years isn't really possible. Historically it was ok for both landlords and tenants as people rented for a short period of time before buying. People rent medium to long term now which I doubt was envisaged when the original law was put in place.

    The current laws are not good enough as it doesn't give any certainty to tenants or give landlords/investors a time horizon to recover/liquidate their investment. Giving tenants infinite contracts in rental accomodation is not good, but neither is the situation where they can be hold to move out with relatively short notice. If they had a defined lease period it would at least allow tenants and landlords to plan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭DubCount


    Why would an investor want to choose their own tenant rather than inherit one with the property - they might have someone known to them to become their tenant or at the very least they would be prefer to check references etc. themselves. Asking an investor to take a chance on a tenant they don't know and haven't chosen is a big deal when an asset worth thousands of Euro is concerned.

    Why would a bank want vacant possession - The bank is not going to want to take a chance that there is an encumbrance on the property arising from the existing tenancy agreement that was in place at they time they issued the mortgage. This might give the bank a legal problem if they have to gain possession. A clean title is therefore important.

    All this tinkering with the rental market does nothing to improve security for tenants. If you want security for tenants, you need more rental properties and more landlords. We are so used to undersupply, that everyone forgets a time when landlords competed for tenants. There is no issue about security when there is choice for tenants.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭alan partridge aha


    I have a question maybe it has been covered.

    You are a small landlord now, and can sell with vacant possession.

    If after 28th Feb can same landlord still sell with vacant possession or can they only sell with tenants in situ.

    Appreciate this may have been covered before.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭alan partridge aha


    Just read this now of government statement

    For existing tenancies (i.e. those in place on 28 February 2026), landlords will continue to have the right to terminate a tenancy in line with the provisions of the Residential Tenancies Acts 2004-2025 as they apply on 28 February 2026.

    I just wondering could that act be amended to stop vacant possession on tenancies before 1 March



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