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Electrocution via USB charger

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,087 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    The true source of the electrocution has not been established

    Fair enough. Maybe the charger was compliant but the cable was frayed? Maybe the extension cord itself got submerged? Who knows? Does it matter?

    The key message is, don't use electric stuff in the bath. Not sure it needs to be any more complex than that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Cordell


    I'd say rather than a bad charger it was water dripping down the charger cable right into the charger, shorting the primary and secondary sides.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 67 ✭✭Zardaz


    5V (even 20V) DC from a charger wont kill.
    There are reports of burns on the woman's chest.
    So she got hit with full 230V AC
    The extension lead was in the bathroom, with the end on a wet floor or in the bath.
    She had stood up (since she did grip on to something), and it is likly her foot was on the electrified floor, and she then fell back into the bath. Nothing to do with the phone or the charging lead. Might be due to a soaked charger, not the phone.
    The real issue here is why the RCD did not trip? There was no mention of an registered electrician's report. No mention that the circuits were inspected and tested for resistance and trip times. WHY?
    Since the metal fittings in the bathroom were also involved, where are the ground resistance and equipotential test reports for those?
    I know someone who stayed for a while in a house on that street (admitidlly 30 years ago). The electrics were ancient and flakey back then.
    In my opinion, there was no RCD on the circuit and the poor woman stood on the wet floor while holding the pipework. RIP.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,363 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,342 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs


    I won't get into the properties of water and electricity, but the one thing that stood out to me from the story is the absolute inability of people to be away from their phones for a small length of time.

    Running an extension lead into a room that has no mains outlets to circumvent this to use your plugged in phone in a bath is absolute madness, its an addiction. Big amount of personal responsibility here regardless of the quality of charger etc..

    RIP to the woman involved.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,615 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    You are missing the point. Did you watch Clive's video?

    There has to be inherent protection in these consumer devices so that individuals who choose to take risks are afforded a level of safety to mitigate for situations outside of their expected use. In short that's why "LV" electronics must use less than 50V DC and it's also why we have RCD's to protect us from AC leakage currents, etc.

    Hypothetically an individual could drop a mobile phone and USB charging lead (not charger!) into a bath and not subject themselves to excessive risk by virtue of the fact that the charger should be built with "double-isolation" as it's basic and supplementary protection method. Double-isolation is where the risky 235v AC is isolated from the DC output in a way that the DC voltage is not referenced to ground and there is physical insulation between the components where the AC and the DC is present. It means that at no point in the normal operation of the circuit can the user be exposed to anything above 5v to 20v in the case of a USB PD power supply, frayed USB cable or not. Situations where this isolation can be lost would typically all be external factors as @Cordell mentioned: water ingress, physical damage, etc.

    If the extension cable was submerged then it wasn't the phone and charger which was the root-cause and the whole investigation of the case was then incorrect (which was not inferred so we don't have a reason to think that it was).

    And if anybody has concerns around the suitability of this topic for public debate, one of the intents of having a Coroner's Court was to allow for dissemination of this type information for the betterment of public health and society as a whole, so our discussion of this topic is effectively an extension of this public right in the interests of others.

    And to finalise my points, here's an example of a charger which was recalled for this very reason. Note the design similarities between this and a popular OEM brand of charger, if you would. Note that the reason for the recall was "There is a serious risk of electric shock arising from poor isolation between the Mains Input & USB Output."

    https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/product_recalls/homeline-recalls-ultrapower-jl-u561-fast-charging-plug-with-double-usb-ports-home-charger-2-4a/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,615 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    Agreed. Plus there was a mention of the husband receiving a shock from his wife after the phone was moved into the sink. We don't know where the charger cable was at that point, presumably still attached to the phone, but the implication there could be that the floor was live at the time. Again, this wasn't sufficiently dealt with by the investigation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 148 ✭✭PaybackPayroll


    From what I can remember from my childhood school lessons, Amps are what usually cause the damage and 2 Amps is huge.

    Static electricity could be thousands of volts, but you don't get electrocuted by taking your jumper off because there's hardly any Current (Amps)

    Also Ivy Watts…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Cordell


    You don't remember enough :)

    A 5V power supply needs a 2.5 Ohm load to generate 2 Amps. A human body have at the lowest 500 to 1500 Ohms, so at 5V you will have between 0.003 to 0.01 Amps. Nowhere near 2.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 8,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭HildaOgdenx


    My thoughts also. Nobody needs to have their phone with them everywhere. Calls can be returned. Messages can be dealt with once the phone is charged - not in the bathroom.

    Sad story, and I feel sorry for her family. May she rest in peace.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 148 ✭✭PaybackPayroll


    You're absolutely correct Cordell - I don't remember enough! I just saw the 2A in the OP and waded in there.

    Thanks for the input. I'll get ChatGPT to explain all this to me. (as well as how 'Earthing' works because that's also been a mystery to me)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,449 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    Was thinking WTF and who would ever do that etc etc and jumping on the analysis bandwagon.

    But how many people drive and use their mobile phones ?

    We really have lost the plot.

    Edit ... I sound like Fr. Ted 🙄



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Earthing, which normally is a vital safety feature, is what probably killed her in this case. The fact that the pipework was properly grounded is what provided a path to complete the circuit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 119 ✭✭blinking


    Given it's illegal to have 230V sockets in a bathroom, what was the iPhone charger plugged into? An extension lead perhaps? Is it beyond the bounds of possiblity that it was this that fell into the bath and not the low power DC charger? A live 230V extension lead in a bath is more than enough to cause burns to the chest and kill a person. A dodgy iPhone charger is not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 905 ✭✭✭Escapees


    This was my line of thinking too and I think the inquest outcome is misleading and does a disservice in terms of properly establishing the cause of the electrocution and informing the public of the dangers of dodgy chargers. The so-called consultant should be challenged on their theory and apparent lack of understanding of electrocution when it comes to voltage and currents involved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 422 ✭✭Orban6


    If you read the article then you know that it was plugged into a 10 metre extension. Yes, I agree that it was possibly a mains voltage electrocution.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,363 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    This discussion reminds me of my cycle tour in Cuba in the mid-noughties.

    The hot showers consisted of a stream of cold water that ran over a glowing electric element. Bit like using an electric fire to heat the water. Worked ok once you got over the culture shock. LOL.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,615 ✭✭✭10-10-20




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭JVince


    Totally misleading thread title.

    The woman had a long extension lead from a bedroom socket brought into the bathroom and she plugged her charger into this extension lead.

    She had the charging cable connected from the live 3 pin socket into her phone via the charger.

    She dropped the phone into the water whilst charging.

    Now I can see the husband wants to try and convince himself that his wife had no fault whatsoever for the rather stupid and very dangerous action. He'd prefer to blame the big multinational company.

    Whilst the inquest probably wanted to state the obvious, but did not out of courtesy to the husband. But reding between the lines, it was entirely her fault for doing something so dangerous and hopefully anyone else who thinks its fine to bring a extension lead into a bathroom whilst having a bath or shower will think twice



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 422 ✭✭Orban6


    Absolutely!

    Taking a bath was a way for me to escape the world for an hour (or 2) with a book.

    Even if I were to want a the phone in the bath, dragging a cable reel into the room with a charger would never be on the cards.

    I don't mean to detract from the terrible situation though.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,615 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    Whoza…! So now the husband has prejudiced the inquest? Talk about an unfair curve-ball.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,363 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    Same idea but that's much more sophisticated looking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,744 ✭✭✭Hippodrome Song Owl


    How risky is using a phone or tablet not connected to any charger in a bath? Are you at risk if the device is dropped into the water with you? Given they sell extendable bath shelves etc designed to hold a device for watching content. I've never been brave enough to use one as I had it drilled into me always about not mixing electricity and water, but have wondered how safe it actually is since I heard of this sad case (even though this involved a charger and extension lead).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,827 ✭✭✭John.G


    My Multimeter has 5 resistance ranges, 200, 2k, 20k, 200k & 2M.

    If I fill a glass with water, with the two probes less than 1mm apart, I get a reading of ~ 1.0 on the 2M scale/range which, assuming M means Megaohms, is 1,000,000 ohms and would require 2,000,000V to flow 2A.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭Dublin Calling


    These are often know as suicide showers and are common in developing world countries. Water is not a very good conductor, millions of people use these type of showers each day.

    The investigation/reporting is very strange, there appears to be no technical investigation at all. We know it is a Apple Phone, but not the make of charger. Assumptions: Knock-off charger with no proper isolation or shock came from the extension lead/socket. Where are the technical reports on the charger and house wiring?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,363 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


     "Where are the technical reports on the charger and house wiring?"

    Nowhere, it was misadventure, using a phone on charge using an extension lead while having a bath.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,330 ✭✭✭kirving


    I had a long post written about this on another thread yesterday(may actually have been Reddit tbh), but there really is way too much unanswered to have a proper technical discussion on it.

    What's bugging me is:

    1. If the easiest path to ground was though the victim, how was the charger even working at all? I would have expected that any short would find the easiest path to any one of the four ground pins on the USB-C, or the shield itself. If those were broken, the battery wouldn't be charging.

      According to the engineer, "no fault with either the phone, the charger or the cable". In that case - by design it shouldn't be shorting to a person
    2. Even accounting for the water, and the full output of 19V - is that really enough "push" to actually induce say 0.1A across the heart? It think that's unlikely, but possible.
    3. The report leaves out very significant details. What phone, what spec of charger? Was it tested? Was in CE certified? "No problem" is way too generic a statement IMO.

      Not to speak ill of the dead, but the line between misadventure (a soaked 220V cable), and totally unexpected death is very blurred here. For people to actually understand the root cause here, and define proper safety standards and regulations, leaving out details is unacceptable. ie: my phone is "waterproof" my phone can also charge other phone over USB-C. Am I in danger? What about a battery pack? etc.

    I will say two things though:

    1. In work, the guy next to me knocked his USB PD laptop dock off his desk, damaging the connector at the laptop side. It shorted inside the cable connector and burned it very badly - much more than I would have expected tbh.

    2: I have a Worx portable pressure washer. It's not USB, but it's a AC-DC charger which outputs 20V @ 400mA. The battery itself can supply much more of course. I had forgot to charge the battery in advance, so while washing the car I came inside to check the charge level. My hands weren't soaking wet, but not dry either. My shoes were likely wet alright. The battery may have been a bit damp from being in vicinity of me washing the car, but it certainly wasn't visibly wet at all.

    While it was plugged in, I pressed the test button to see what the charge level had got to, and I got a fairy big shock from it. I've got shocks from capacitors all the way up to 220V, and this wasn't on the low end of things. To be honest I wasn't expecting that level of shock at all from just 20V.

    (my charger is the UK plug model, but I suspect the third pin isn't connected to anything.)

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭JVince


    did you ever think of reading an article before making a comment?

    FACT - the dead person had a long extension lead from the bedroom to the bathroom and the phone charger was plugged in

    FACT - the husband made suggestions that a very large mobile phone company should be told to put a warning label on their phones to say that charging in the bath is dangerous

    FACT - the inquest did not want to comment on that suggestion and did not make any ruling in that way, but said that such a suggestion "could be looked at" - plamasing the husband as he understandably wanted to blame someone other than his wife's error of judgement

    Its all there in black and white - maybe you didn't read past line 2 like most people who make incorrect comments



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Cordell


    You didn't get that shock from the battery, but rather from the live mains. Only that can create a circuit that involve passing current through your finger, your body and ground. What happened exactly may be something similar to this case here, water everywhere.

    In order to get a shock, you need your body to be part of a circuit. A bad shock needs a large part of you to be part of the circuit e.g. live-hand-torso-leg-ground.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,058 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Honestly when I first saw the story. I thought “fecking eejit”. Then if I remember it was suggested that there should be warnings on it.

    Personally I was thinking the real question is are people that addicted to their phone that they think “oh, I will charge my phone and use it while in the bath”.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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