Manchester United Thread 25/26 - Teamtalk/Transfers/Gossip Mod Note in OP 26.09.24

Thanks for this. I could think of Italy/Juve with Chiellini and Bonucci but struggled to think of other successful teams.

Genuine Question - Did any of them teams have a prolific striker that benefitted from that formation? I can see Sesko struggle with this… But early days.

lets say we changed formation to 433.

Are we not still a full back, a centre back, 2 central midfielders and that same striker short? though maybe a winger short rather than fullback if you are happy with Dalot, Dorgu, Mazraoio and Shaw?

IMO the biggest issue we have is CM, and no matter what formation we play, we will have that same issue. So changing formation changes very little.

and in case it even matters, I don't accept the central midfield quality as an excuse for Amorim or any failings of the team this season.

We chose to sign two 10s and move Bruno, and sign no CM. That is how the club (Amorim et al) decided to address the issues of last season - so it is a choice to go into this season with Casemiro and Bruno as the first choice pairing. They could have done differently, so if we can point to midfield as a point of failure, it is on Amorim/Wilcox/Berrada.

They made a choice, and now it is on Amorim to make good of that choice.

If you have the right players is the key statement here. The makeup of the Conte and Tuchel squads were very different to ours, particularly when you consider effective WBs and energy and athleticism in midfield.

Yet these Chelsea sides are regularly cited as reasons why the same approach should work for United - it's an apples & oranges comparison imo. It doesn't hold up to much scrutiny.

As already mentioned, Alonso had in Frimpong and Grimaldo two guys who were very effective in the WB role at Leverkusen. We just don't have that.

Interestingly, Alonso is not inflexible on the Back 3 approach and doesn't apply it much at Real Madrid where the makeup of the squad is quite different.

That's where we clarify what we are "short" of.

I would maintain that to be a top 6/8 side we are short nothing, as long as we use the squad most effectively.

To be a top 6/8 side with the current system, we are short everywhere, because they don't suit it at all. Which is why we have gotten so comfortable with 14th/15th place.

To win titles we are short 4/5 players, again, assuming they are being used effectively.

Fair enough.

But I've seen it posted here numerous times before that if Chelsea could make it work, so can United. And the problem must be the players are not applying themselves…..

And I find that an overly simplistic analysis.

I suppose for me anyway it's a question of which team do I look at and think is stronger.

433 -

———————Keeper———————
—————Yoro———Deligt————
Mazraoui——————————Shaw
————Urgate——-Mainoo————
———————Bruno———————-
Mbeumo————————-Cunha—
———————Sesko———————

Or 3421

———————Keeper————————-
——Yoro———Deligt———-Shaw———

Mazraoui—————————-Dorgu——

————Urgate——-Bruno——————

—Mbeumo————————-Cunha—

———————Sesko———————

For me, 433 shape looks to get more players into their better positions for longer periods of the game. It's really Mainoo on for Dorgu and instead of pushing Dorgu high up on the left on his own you can support Cunha with a left back and a midfielder.

I agree our midfield is still an issue, Casemiro and Urgate in particular are struggling.
So get another midfielder in there closer to them to support and push Bruno back into his best position.

Bruno is our best player still. We need to IMO treat him as such.

When I hear the Brazil 2002 team I'm always reminded of the anomaly that was Roque Junior. His club career never reached the same level as his Brazil one - especially after the WC win and his disaster spell at Leeds.

Also Kleberson who I think is harshly judged in his spell here.

Yeah, that is a fair view.

Lammens
Mazraoui, De Ligt, Yoro, Shaw/Dorgu
Mainoo, Urgarte
Bruno
Mbeumo, Sesko, Cunha

Probably a more solid side less prone to mistakes in coverage

Casemiro is too slow and Bruno isn't aware enough defensively.

Just as an aside, one positive of the 3 at the back has probably been the role it has played in Yoro's development.

Maybe he would be exactly where he is today if we were playing 4 atb, but I don't think it would, he probably would have had less game time and it's fairly commonly accepted that 3 atb leaves the CBs less exposed (not that you might have thought that based on last year) which can only benefit a young CB imo.

Not advocating 3 atb, but it's probably one real positive to have come out of it.

The thing about the 3 CB formation and comparing it to other managers who have successfully deployed that formation is they all implement it in their own way. They can be the same formation on paper but totally different systems. Amorim wants his wide CBs to regularly vacate the back line and press well up the pitch and take up positions of inverted fullbacks at times. Conte for eg. would never ask his CBs to do anything like this. To be fair to Amorim, the team are executing what he wants much better this season so there is progress in that regard. But there are still big questions as to whether the system has a high enough ceiling in the PL and whether it can successfully withstand counter tactics. I think it can get top 5 this season because of the edge that no European football gives but beyond that I'm not sure. I'm looking forward to seeing how his system evolves and develops as the season goes on.

The expectation this year will be top 8, challenge for top 6. The squad has enough for that given the lack of midweek games, we have come through an incredibly tough set of fixtures and will have a better idea how it is shaping up in another month or so.

I don;t think your concolusion is correct.

We were linked to Lammens from before the summer, and at that point it was as backup to Onana with a view to him (1) being better than Bayindir and (2) a high ceiling player they felt would become number.1.

I do think there was a hope Onana and Bayindir would be good enough for this season, but Onana coming back unfit (apparently), getting injured (certainly) and asking for a new, higher wage, contract (apparently) made the club side eye that man hard, folllowed by two clangers vs Grimsby. That then solidified the need to go get the keeper they had been somewhat planning on.

I suppose you could view it was a panic buy in terms of their (apparent) plan not coming together and then pivoting, but they pivoted to a long term target they had been assessing already and had on the radar to buy anyway.

I do think he is the wrong signing, for where we are though.

If the plan was to buy him as competition for Onana, because Bayindir is not good enough, then buying him as a replacement for Onana and having bayindir currently ahead of him, is madness. I don't see it as a panic move, but I do see it as the wrong one. If it was a panic move I think we would have thrown money at Donnaruma or Martinez, and I think Donnaruma would have been the right choice - but I believe his wages priced him out of our interest.

As for him not starting, I don't know. Unless we are going with Bayindir as first choice for the rest of the season (unless he forces a change through properly terrible goals) then I think Lammens should be coming into the side vs Sunderland at least, if not vs Brentford.

But to be fair to Bayinidir he didn't do anything specifically wrong vs City or Chelsea. Maybe Donnaruma saves the first Haaland goal but its not a clanger.

Martinez maybe? But donnarumma cause of wages? He's only 26. Potentially number 1 for 10 years!