Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

Well I guess this season will tell a lot, given the new coach is very highly rated.

That's the point tho; if McMillan has as good a first season as Rowntree, he'll be doing pretty well for himself.

I'm not criticising Munster, Conor Murray is. At great length across many topics.

It's not a criticism that they took 4 months to sign Rowntree, it's a basic statement of fact.

So if you actually want to get it straight, there's two places to start.

Neither would Murray

Eh?

Murray was there for the entire duration of Rowntree's reign as head coach.

Earls' comments as quoted above were a winger talking about the forwards' coach.

One of these is more relevant than the other for judging Rowntree as head coach.

Again, these are basic statements of facts. If you don't like those facts, then I don't know what to tell you.

Hmmm retired player comes out with controversial comments just as his booked is released. He was in Easons yesterday plugging it and is in O'Mahonys tomorrow. If that is truly what murray believes, then he should have kept it to himself. Doesn't shine a good light on his character. He was basically topping up his pension with his big pay cheque for the past 3 or 4 seasons as a player.

You're selectively quoting me to make it look as though I said something I didn't.

I did not say that "why/how he got the job in the first place" was a statement of fact.

But OK, I'll engage in good faith. All I ask is that you return the courtesy.

No, I don't think Rowntree was a good appointment, and I say that as someone who has been a Munster fan since the beginning of pro rugby. Here's why.

The JVG reign was not a success. They took a gamble on an inexperienced, unproven guy taking his first crack at a HC job and it did not pan out, despite keeping him for five years. It didn't work with Foley either but they had Erasmus to come in then. They needed an experienced operator to succeed JVG and instead they took a punt on Rowntree. Now, by all accounts, there were not many candidates coming forward so I wouldn't blame Munster for that, but it did not set them up for success and we can't say it wasn't coming.

How did they fare results-wise? Let's see:

• So he won the URC in his first season. A great achievement, but there were 10 wins out of 18 in the pools, and the Champions Cup exit was ignominious at best; any Munster team shipping 50 points in a CC game should have had alarm bells ringing, especially as it came a week after shipping 38 points in Thomond against Glasgow. (The previous game, they conceded 42 at home to Scarlets) The URC knockouts were a great morale boost, but if Glasgow hadn't gone down to 14 early on, or if Leinster had gone full strength, who knows?
• So on to season 2, topped the URC table but fell apart in the knockouts and another Round of 16 exit from Europe. I'd call that neutral rather than good or bad I suppose.
• Season 3; I mean, it speaks for itself. 42 points conceded in Parma, two more cricket scores in South Africa, and a brutally unhappy playing squad. He didn't even make it to November.

At the end of his tenure, what can we say about squad development or progression in the style of play? Not a huge amount, I would argue. A lot of the signings were mediocre, which I understand isn't always the coach's fault, but I'd struggle to point to many players who came through under his tenure and say "yes, that player really blossomed under Rowntree", and I'd really struggle to say what Munster's style of play was under him, other than let Coombes pick it from the base and crash over.

Murray makes a point about the endless feeling of transition at Munster and I can see where he's coming from. For literally 15 years, we've been waiting to turn the corner, waiting for the next batch of players to come through, and the successor to JVG needed to be the guy to end that cycle, but Rowntree wasn't and it was a huge ask of him to make that step up. Again, not necessarily his fault, some guys are better as assistant coaches, and the players (Murray included) are not innocent bystanders, but the head coach carries the can and Rowntree didn't live up to what was needed of him.

Honestly, if you exclude the period of May/June 2023, I think it's hard to make an argument for him being a success. Winning the URC was a great boost but ultimately it hasn't been backed up and that's the legacy he left IMO.

But OK, I'll engage in good faith. All I ask is that you return the courtesy.

Completely fair enough FFF, and in that spirit, the points I'd comment on:

No, I don't think Rowntree was a good appointment

I'd strongly disagree, obviously on the basis of our first silverware in, what, 14 years? (Which to be fair to you do credit as "a great achievement").

Now, by all accounts, there were not many candidates coming forward so I wouldn't blame Munster for that, but it did not set them up for success and we can't say it wasn't coming.

This might've been poor phraseology, but an obvious counter-point is that we literally won a trophy.

At the end of his tenure, what can we say about squad development or progression in the style of play? Not a huge amount, I would argue….. I'd really struggle to say what Munster's style of play was under him, other than let Coombes pick it from the base and crash over.

Tbh, out of your entire post, this is what I'd disagree with most, and is so far from the truth imo. We had a huge style change under Rowntree (and Prendergast) in attack. More passes per phase, quicker rucks, more handling, more counter-attacking, from deeper, less kicking the ball away. Coombes himself often had some brilliant offloads and handling in the build-up to some of our tries, so he clearly isn't a "pick and crash" player and we were never a "pick and crash" team under Rowntree. (Even in that first season - and off the top of my head - Coombes' showed great hands vs Leinster in the Aviva and in the build-up to an amazing try vs Toulouse that, imo, are pretty typical of Coombes, along with everything else he brings, including that heavy carrying).

I remember in the last season under JVG, the game vs Connacht around Christmas was the nadir where we had a total of 45 passes. In total for the team.

The game plan we implemented under Rowntree and Prendergast couldn't have been more different where we were averaging around 170+ passes per game, iirc. Jack Crowley alone had 42 passes in the final vs the Stormers, such was the change in gameplan in that 18 month period. And we had amongst the quickest ruck ball in the whole league that season, iirc.

None of that is something that a "pick from the base and crash" team does.

squad development…. but I'd struggle to point to many players who came through under his tenure and say "yes, that player really blossomed under Rowntree"

Casey, Crowley, Coombes, Nash, Kendellen, Hodnett - I'd argue all those guys have really developed under him. And they're all a good age profile and will now become the leaders in this team for McMillan to build on.

In terms of NIQ's, Kleyn is an example of a guy who improved under him (RWC etc….). Frisch too, who went on to almost triple his salary (I think), so impressive he was with Munster.

You could also point to the likes of the performances he got out of Stephen Archer at the tail end of his career. I'm sure there's more tbh. Shane Daly too was excellent in that title winning season, an underrated player imo. I think in that SF, he alone out-offloaded Leinster. (It was something like 20 offloads to 3 total). Again, none of that speaks to a "pick and crash" team.

In summary, I think your synopsis of Rowntree is really harsh on the guy who delivered our first piece of silverware in over a decade (and a top of the table finish the following season), even if it didn't work out in the end. And I think your synopsis of the game plan in particular (and players developed) is way, way off.

But my arguments don't just revolve around that 3 game period; those 3 games are the most prudent examples of it, because it lead to our first silverware in 14 years. (And I literally gave a stat that from memory, I'm pretty sure is accurate - we averaged 170+ passes per game in the entirety of that first season).

But it's absolutely accurate to say we transitioned to a team that played with waaaaay more on-ball, higher number of passes per phase, higher number of rucks, offloads etc. during the entirety of Rowntree's first 2 seasons, and especially after the SA game. We were way better to watch.

I honestly think that the following synopsis is so divorced from reality with regards the first 2 seasons of Rowntree:

I'd really struggle to say what Munster's style of play was under him, other than let Coombes pick it from the base and crash over.

That summary is bizarre to me and doesn't at all tally what with we saw on the pitch in those 2 seasons. And those 2 seasons lead to a URC title and a top-of-the-table finish.

And I'm not ignoring how it ended up last season - in fact, I've acknowledged that, "even given how it ended up" etc. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a really good appointment for us. What's the old adage? "all political coaching careers end in failure."

Toulon may well have buyers remorse with Frisch, but that doesn't mean he wasn't excellent for Munster - he was.

Coombes may be pretty much exactly where he was a few years ago in an Ireland context, but that doesn't mean he hasn't improved significantly for Munster - he has.

Crowley - well, you know exactly my thoughts on this.

Casey has just captained Ireland during the Summer.

Calvin Nash started every game of a 6 Nations win.

Kleyn has a RWC medal in his back pocket.

And POM, Murray, Earls and Archer have a medal for Munster in theirs.

All of that happened on Rowntree's watch and he deserves credit for it, even if it didn't work out in the end.

And I think the vast, vast majority of Munster fans understand and appreciate this, and think he was a good appointment. I'd go as far as saying this is the first I've ever come across the suggestion that he wasn't tbh.

That's all grand. I'd rather you didn't dismiss my extensive opinions as 'divorced from reality' and 'bizarre' but baby steps I suppose.

Again - yes, he won the URC. He also failed utterly to make any impression in Europe. A 56% win rate. Munster not really any closer to the top table than they were when he took over. Munster representation in the national squad continuing to dwindle. Exited six games into the season leaving an awful mess for others to clean up.

The relative importance of these things is a matter of opinion but on balance, I think there's plenty of reason to debate whether he was a good appointment or not without it being divorced from reality.

But the relative importance of winning silverware is not. On that score, he can't be seen as anything other than a good appointment.

Plenty of coaches have won silverware and turned out to be utter disasters in the longer term. I can think of two in the Irish context alone.

I would never expect you to agree with anything I say, but what kicked this all off is one of Munster's greatest ever players saying he was not a good coach. Like, this guy knows far more about Rowntree and his ability and achievement as a head coach than either of us.

So again, it's extremely debatable.

An interview with Connor Murray up on YouTube now. Indo Sport is the channel.

its th that gobsh8te ruaidhri OC

is it over?

and munster let in 2 tries in the last 10 mins?

Great run out and enjoyable game bar a slightly frustrating last 10 mins. Middle 30 was a bit dour as said above.

Positives for me:

1) Scrum. We were very dominant and not just our starters. Loughman/Scannell/Jaeger absolutely demolished their opponents and the subs kept it up for the second third. Milne really shone when he came on in the tight and the loose, he looks a super buy. To me our season hinges on keeping key front row personnel for the business end, we'll get mullered otherwise and it's hard to win without parity.

2) Style of play - intensity was great and some lovely handling under absolutely atrocious conditions. Very encouraged by what they were trying and often succeeding in doing.

3) Gordon Wood - absolutely superb performance, only one game but he really put his hand up. Hodnett was also superb when he came on for the equally impressive Kendellen, hope the injury isn't bad. Dan Kelly was very tidy in midfield.

4) Thought Haley was a cut above bar a kick on the edge of his 22 that got pulled back (would like to have seen it again cos it was close).

5) Ben O Connor was very lively on the wing, possibly fell off a tackle for their first try though.

6) Edogb-óg has all the attributes, some freakish carries in the tight. Lost control of a greasy ball in the red zone once.

7) In general if was great to see the fringe players shine, there were a lot of very encouraging performances. Evan O'Connell has a huge first 30 and the big development second row whose name escapes me also has some massive moments. Want to see more of those two.

8) New jersey and kit are class

9) I'm definitely leaving out players who played well and put their hands up, green shoots at this early stage

Negatives:

1) Lineout - when Barron came on, some of his throws were too low and picked off. It did improve to be fair but their first three or four were poor and to my mind a lot were on him.

2) Tony Butler - poor performance, JJ looked very much the accomplished pro in comparison and was very good while at the helm (already so much better than Billy). You look at Sam Prendergast and Crowley and you want your young players to be showing that sort of exciting promise, even with the expected errors of youth… today wasn't a day for him and the conditions were awful but I'm starting to think he needs a few big games for us, haven't seen him spark a game into life in red for a while now. Can see Crowley and JJ owning the jersey otherwise.

3) last 10 mins, Bath got two tries to spoil the scoreboard and take the sheen off a good 80 mins overall before then. The second was a worldie from a poor restart that Ollie Lawrence set them up for. No harm having something to focus on post-match and Bath are ahead of us in their preseason so overall a good hit out.