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Northern Ireland 2125?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,426 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Well, obviously some would care. But Boris Johnson got record approval in opinion polls, and received a thumping majority at a general election, on the back of having got the EU to agree to put the customs border in the Irish Sea. And when he later changed his mind and started pissing all over his own deal his approval declined rapidly. (Admittedly, there were other factors at work there.)

    So, the evidence does suggest that most people in the UK were either delighted with putting the customs border in the Irish Sea, or at worst were indifferent or unaware. There was negligible oppposition at the time (and that is still the case now) and certainly nobody in Britain ever had to pay any political price for it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    How did you conclude that people from Birmingham living in Birmingham with their experiences would hold the same view as people from Birmingham living in Northern Ireland with different experiences would hold the same view?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,317 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I have said it before in these arguments over identity and terminology.

    Unionism/Loyalism needs to come to terms with what the GFA is.

    It is IMO the tacit withdrawal of the British and a concession from them that NI is not Britain.

    Everything they have done since the GFA shows that.
    And the greatest display of the reality of that was where they placed the border and who they were prepared to shaft in deciding that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,317 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I see those born on the island of Ireland as Irish by birth and who have every right to identify as they wish, be that Polish, Chinese, British or whatever.
    I will want that right enshrined in a UI as it is in the GFA.

    I see those born in Britain, a distinctly different island, as British and would hope that they can identify as they wish too.
    For the purposes of the simple post I wrote I needed to distinguish between the 'British' 'the Irish' and those who live here but 'identify as British'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    You may see that those born on the island of Ireland as Irish by birth, and that is nice to know, but it amounts to nothing more than wishful thinking on your part.

    The law is clear - those born in Northern Ireland are British by birth.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,317 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8571/

    "Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom and the British Nationality Act 1981 generally considers that a person born in the UK will be a British citizen by birth if one of their parents was either a British citizen or settled in the UK at the time of birth."

    I know you would like to wish UK law away but the British Nationality Act is clear. Several attempts to challenge it under the GFA have failed. If you are born in Northern Ireland to parents who are settled there, you are British by birthright, and you can then choose to identify as Irish.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,317 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Lots of British laws are different to here. We don't observe the different ones

    There is no law in Ireland stating that those born in NI are British.

    Constitutionally we see anyone born on the island as 'Irish' and entitled to bear an Irish passport. Via the GFA we recognise and enshrine the right to identify as British, Irish or both.

    In a UI I would like to extend that right to enshrine the rights of the multiple identities and nationalities that are now citizens here and whose offspring born here will be Irish by birth but who may want to continue that identity.

    If you wish to observe British law in this existing sovereign state and in a future UI one, that's a case you will have to make. Best of luck with that one!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    What a bizarre post.

    We cannot decide the birthright citizenship rights of those born in Northern Ireland, only the British state can do that.

    We can give anyone born on this island the right to apply for Irish citizenship, but we cannot give them automatic birthright citizenship.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,317 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I am not talking about citizenship. That is a fluid thing.

    If Russia win in Ukraine and change laws in relation to citizenship, does that make people born in Ukraine ‘Russians’.

    Yes is the answer, using your logic.

    There is NO law here decreeing what you claimed.

    You want to follow British law, you work away.
    There is zero onus on me.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    If Russia win in Ukraine, and the international community recognises Ukraine as part of Russia, and Russia abolishes Ukrainian citizenship, then yes, people born in Ukraine are Russians, that is how international law and the rights of states to determine their own laws works.

    The birthright citizenship of people born in Northern Ireland is British, nothing we say or do can change that.

    Nobody is asking you to follow British law, it applies to those born in Northern Ireland, whether they like it or not, and whether we like it or not.

    There is no law here determining that people born in the USA are Americans either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,317 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    My assessment has zero to do with citizenship or law. They are fluid entities and can change at anytime.

    It has to do with geography.

    Those born on the island of Ireland are Irish and the law of one jurisdiction calls those there British.
    While the constitution here sees everybody born on the island as Irish and automatically entitled to an Irish passport.

    You want to see it otherwise, work away.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,426 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Certainly we can. We do, in fact give citizenship automatically to many people who are not born in the State, or not born in any part of Ireland. Similarly, the UK gives citizenship automatically to many people who are not born in the UK. And Ireland and teh UK are not unusual in this regard.

    "Citizenship" is an artificial legal construct, and it extends to exactly as many people as the state that constructs it decides, on whatever basis the state that constructs it chooses.

    Never confuse citizenship and nationality. If you do that, you'll have to conclude that there were no Irish people in the world before 1922, which would have come as a great surprise to literally the whole world at the time, and that there have been no English people in the world since 1707, which would come as a great surprise now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,426 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    By UK law most (but not all) people born in NI are British citizens by birth. But, as just mentioned, that's not quite the same as being British.

    The people of Northern Ireland are entitled to "identify as British"; this is a "birthright" rather than just a right. It's the reason why British citizenship must be available to them. But, note, they can identify as British even if they renounce their British citizenship, or if they are part of the small class of people born in NI who don't have British citizenship in the first place. It's a birthright, see? You have the right because of the circumstances of your birth; it's not conditional on your retaining or obtaining any particular citizenship status.

    (And of course it is also their birthright to identify as Irish, which is why they have a legal entitlement to Irish citizenship, and they can identify as Irish whether or not they exercise their entitlement to Irish citizenship.)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 690 ✭✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    But do the British want U to be like them-?-

    The British passport clearly says Britain AND ( Northern Ireland -

    The British see U as a add on- not one of them it seems-

    I have a 32 county Irish passport - No AND being Irish-



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Nothing to stop anyone anywhere identifying as Irish or British, but that is not a birthright.

    Section 1(1) of the British Nationality Act 1981 is clear and unambiguous.

    "A person born in the United Kingdom after commencement shall be a British citizen if at the time of the birth his father or mother is—

    (a)a British citizen; or

    (b)settled in the United Kingdom"

    There is no ambiguity about the word shall, there is no choice of identity. They shall be a British citizen, whether they like it or not. That is the law in the UK, if you don't like the law, be born somewhere else, or renounce the British citizenship, once old enough to do so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    That is a matter of opinion not a matter of fact.

    It is equally an opinion that people born in the British Isles are automatically British because of geography.

    The Constitution does not have purview over Northern Ireland. It asserts an entitlement to belong to the Irish nation, but that isn't law in Northern Ireland. As I have explained elsewhere, the law is clear that everyone born in Northern Ireland (to someone settled in the UK) shall be British.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,317 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Who gives a **** about British law?

    I live in the republic of Ireland and I am not a British subject.

    Stop digging the hole further.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    If you get caught drunk-driving in the North, try telling the RIC that you don't give a **** about British law.

    British law applies in Northern Ireland. British law states that anyone born in Northern Ireland shall be British. There is nothing complicated about that, it is plain and simple.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,317 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    If I am in Britain or anywhere else I will observe their common law.

    The GFA is a part of British and Irish law. And I voted for it and observe it.

    Once again you show by that post that you had your fingers crossed behind your back when you voted for it.

    You quoted a British law that dictates the identity of those who live in NI

    There is no ambiguity about the word shall, there is no choice of identity. 

    The GFA allows those in NI to identify as British, Irish or both.

    And so do I. I have no desire to dictate anyone's identity. Nor do I subscribe to a law that would dictate that I do.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Anyone born and living in N.I. can identify as transgender, double headed creatures from the planet Mars for all most people care, but if they are caught drink driving they are subject to United Kingdom law ("British" law for short), and if they want social security or to pay their taxes they go through the United Kingdom (or "British" for short) system.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,222 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    If they're caught drinking driving, there is no grand overarching UK law; they're subject to Northern Irish law, which differs in part from English, Scottish or Welsh law. E.g. limits are lower for novice driver in Scotland, random breathalysing isn't allowed in any of the UK except NI etc etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,317 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Has anyone ever been arrested for not obeying this UK law?

    Should I be fearful for not changing my belief when I cross the border, sometimes up to 20 times a day?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    this is the biggest load of nonsense I have ever read in a post.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    NI was never Britain. Surely you know this francie. My British passport states that loud and proud on the front cover.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,317 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady



    Typo @downcow meant to read ‘was not Britain’s’

    Maggie once thought it was as ‘British as Finchley’ btw

    A few years later the British decreed it was a part of Ireland and it’s fate lay with the people of Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    absolutely. And if francie has not officially renounced his British citizenship, then he is British- not through identifying but a fact through birth.
    he will have the full support of the British consulate etc anywhere he goes.
    I completely accept that he is also Irish. I won’t insult him using terms like identifying- to me he is absolutely Irish, but he does have dual nationality, I don’t. Unless of course he was one of the very few who risks giving up that valuable nationality. Applications from ni peaked at 85 in 2018 but have fell back again.
    nationalists know which side their bread is buttered on



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,317 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I was born in Monaghan, Ireland. I’m Irish. I don’t have dual nationality nor have any use for it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    apologies. I thought you were born on the other side of that international border. Clearly you are as Irish as I am British 🍻 cheers to that.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,317 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Clarity is in the eye of the beholder.

    Thing is, if we were in France and I said I was born in Co. Monaghan and you said you were born in Co. Down we would both be assumed to be Irish. I have no need to disabuse them of that assumption. You would have to tell them you identify as British.

    I am sure they would accept that as I do.

    *I hate to tell you this that the same applies in Britain, as it has happened when I was there. I have a good friend in London from your community and he has had to do it several times.



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