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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,433 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    “I wouldn't think it odd if a fire was lit after Christmas.”

    It would be the norm to do “clean up” prior to Christmas - either Jules or Bailey has previously stated that clothes beyond repair or soiled would have been burned - it’s entirely “possible” there was a fire- but it’s not probable in my view- Christmas period tends to be a period of rest and relaxation. Coupled with the fact that both were adamant no fire took place in the days following Christmas or indeed the murder and no relevant evidence was found in the embers and of course, a saturated long heavy coat wouldn’t burn assuming Bailey had tried to clean his “blood soaked” coat in bleach and a bath full of water”- on the balance of probability there was no fire over the Christmas period



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I think that I have written often enough that there is no evidence against anybody, only speculation and hypotheseses as well as motives, some motives maybe stronger others less strong.

    The idea that she was possibly attacked right at the door is only fueled by the blood stain at the door. So she must have been at least injured at the door or the killer had Sophie's blood on himself and went back to the house afterwards.

    I never knew that the majority here would think that she exited the house to investigate something as opposed to a knock at the door. ( I often presumed those who thought Bailey did it, would think that Bailey knocked )

    I would see Jules similar to Shirley. If Alfie or Bailey did it, I would tend to think they both would have either suspected or found out at some point or played some role in it, maybe a minor role?

    Again that's a speculation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,172 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Its clearly stated by the DPP… right. And was the DPP in the room with Bailey at the time telling him this?

    Nope. You are applying 20-20 hindsight and giving Bailey information from the future he could not have known about at the time. Likewise for all the other tests that were run.

    I've already asked you… how could he have known this when he offered the samples?
    Where did Bailey get this crystal ball?

    And you have no credible or coherent answer, your posts continue to show the same inability to engage with the information available at the time Bailey was being questioned, and without explanation assume he has perfect knowledge of all the tests run over the coming months and years and their outcome.

    Objectively, your claim is nonsense.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    If Sophie had been attacked at the door, then one would expect to see more signs of struggle in that area. She she had put her walking boots on….unlaced, strongly suggestive of her intent to go outside.

    Additionally, there is compelling evidence that the attack took place in daylight.

    The shape (there are photographs somewhere) and positioning of the blood smear on the door is very suggestive of a bloodied sleeve brushing against the door as the door handle was moved.

    Whilst, as you say, all possibilities are worthy of debate, imo, the liklihood of Jules involvement, especially active involvement, is remote.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I honestly don't really know what is more or less likely in this situation. Suppose somebody knocked at her door, and she went outside, he involved her in a conversation, she decided to put on the boots and step outside? All of a sudden and unexpected the killer knocks her unconscious and she goes to the ground, leaving a blood stain at the door?

    Apart from that there doesn't seem to be a motive for the killer to drag or carry Sophie's body to the gates and finish her off? Maybe just to put the body in plain sight for somebody arriving at the cottage, not for Alfie and Shirley leaving?

    Or the killer had blood of Sophie's on his gloves/ clothes and went back to the house and caused the stain?

    Jules involvement I don't see as likely at all as well. She could either maybe have driven the car or cleaned the car. However cleaning the car would have been noticed by her daughters who were staying over. Or if so, she could have cleaned it at the studio.

    I am not saying, accusing or suggesting, I am only describing that theoretically Jules could have been in on it if Bailey did it. Alibi she didn't have and neither had Bailey.

    I don't know if Bailey was a very clean man, personal hygiene and houskeeping and cleaning? Suppose Bailey did it, could he really clean everything up, so that Jules doesn't notice anything? Clothes, car, etc…? Suppose he returned to the studio dripping full of blood? He'd be spending the whole morning just cleaning.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,433 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    speaking of “cleaning” - it just struck me- was there ever a forensic search of Jules’ house and home studio where Bailey worked carried out?
    If all of these wonderful stories about bonfires and coats soaking in baths of bleach are to be believed, then there would have been a rake of forensic evidence left behind - especially if Bailey did all of his disrobing and cleaning in his studio.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,172 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    They had a search warrant for the property, and took items of clothing of interest.

    See Section 2.3 Blood Group Tests below.
    As Bailey and the victim has different blood groups, in some cases items were tested at blood group level as it was quicker.

    She found a bloodstains on several items of Bailey’s clothing including shirts, jeans and a jacket. She found the group to be consistent with his own. She also found bloodstaining on a beige jacket but the samples were too small for her to obtain blood group information so instead she cut portions of the fabric and sent them to the Forensic Science Laboratory in Northern Ireland for PCR DNA analysis. She did the same with some other items of Bailey’s clothes which had apparent blood staining including jeans, a rugby shirt and a jacket. Amongst the items also taken from the Prairie Cottage and tested were a waistcoat and a scarf. Note that in the testimony of Richard Tisdall and Bernadette Kelly, Ian Bailey was observed in the Galley Pub on the night of 22/12/1996 and was wearing a long dark coat, a waistcoat and a multi-coloured scarf. No blood or damage was found on these items so and she did not send them for further testing. The hairs taken from the hands of the victim were found to match her own. The hair taken from the Studio house did not match the victim.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MurderAtTheCottage/comments/vraf9q/forensic_tests_on_the_body_exhibits_and_crime/

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 824 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    It seems unlikely that Sophie was bleeding at the door. The blood was transferred from the sleeve to the door, so almost certainly after the attack began. And to have enough blood on you that you can transfer it, means that it must have been a lot of blood, more than enough to have drops on the ground. To me that means that Sophie wasn't bleeding when she left the house and went to the gate, however the encounter could still have started at the house, just maybe not the attack. I still don't know how the perpetrator could have transferred the blood also without dripping blood on the way up. There were blood drops in lots of places, and on Sophie herself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭csirl


    Remember, Jules drove Bailey to the murder scene later that morning to do his journalism. There would not have been much time to deep clean the car, especially if the murder was at day break.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,433 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    Thanks for that - so in other words they had a decent opportunity to obtain DNA evidence from Baileys property albeit it was some weeks after the murder before he was collared - but even so, traces on a chair or sofa etc or indeed a hair could have still been present around his home - not conclusive just because they didn’t find anything but still , it certainly doesn’t point towards guilt either



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,547 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    They say Sophie was 'fastidious' about closing the gate, and that it was likely open at the time of the murder.

    Assuming the attack happened in the morning, by the gate, might she have spotted it open, put on her shoes, and decided to go out and close it? Could she have been ambushed on her way out? Perhaps chased as far as the gate?

    1000055428.png

    What is interesting is the door with blood on it was a less accessible back door, rather than the front door as I had assumed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Yes, and any attempt to clean the car would have been obvious to the investigators and, in any case would be unlikely to remove all traces of blood from upholstery, controls, pedals etc. Logically, if Bailey had killed Sophie, he could not, realistically, have done so without getting bloodstains on his clothing, his shoes his hands etc. If he had used the car to travel to and from Dreenane, some traces would have transferred to the interior of the car. No such traces were found. Hence the rather desperate assertion that he must have walked.

    The more thought one puts into this the less likely it seems that Bailey did it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    It has always nagged at me, in the back of my mind, that the leaving open of the gate - or even the propping open (with a block?) could have been the irritation that prompted Sophie to put her boots on, go down to the gate and confront the person who was doing it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,172 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It also points towards the use of a vehicle, as forensics expert bjsc \ Bridget Chappuis noted.

    And why was the gate open? Sophie’s friends say she was fanatical about keeping it closed to stop livestock straying.The police rely on the premise that Ian Bailey came on foot because of the sighting at Kealfadda Bridge. But if you are on foot why open the gate to its fullest extent and ensure that it stays that way? The fact that the gate was wide open and the presence of apparently fresh unexplained tyre marks in the grass verge above her head and clearly visible in the scene photos suggests to me that someone in a vehicle may have been around the little townland close to the time of Sophie’s death.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/was-sophie-toscan-du-plantier-up-and-eating-breakfast-when-her-killer-called/a55584295.html

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    The wall at No 2 is a later addition. It would have been possible to go down to the gate by this route at the time, as Shirley Foster proved by going back up that way.

    Post edited by chooseusername on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,547 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    This may be of interest. Short French documentary.

    Shirley Foster is in it and discusses discovering the body. I find it strange that she drove past the body before stopping, instead of stopping before. She also appears to be English, which I also didn't know.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Yes, that's strange. I've always tried to explain it to myself this way, that if you were in Ireland in the 90ies illegal dumping of trash was sadly commonplace. One often found trash on the roadside. I think anybody would have just driven by and thought the body was just some trash. Only upon second thought one would probably have recognized that it was a human. Shirley probably did through the rear view mirror.

    The only difference here is that it's just a private road leading only to 3 houses, and it's unlikely any of the neighbours would litter in their own neighbourhood.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 824 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    I suppose if Sophie left of her own accord, and wasn't in a major rush she probably would've walked around the road, I expect this is how she typically walked down, and this is what is shown in the home video. In the image shown, number 5 appears to be over the embankment to the right of the house which is about the least likely route.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 824 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Alfie and Shirley were blow-ins themselves. I wasn't aware that Shirley was native English. Sometimes people just have English sounding accents, particularly if they did elocution lessons etc. but it does sound like she could be alright. Josie is also shown in this documentary too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Yes, and she moved back to England, Derbyshire I think. After Alfie died and she had the house sold.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    No, still living locally.

    She had been a school teacher in East London until she retired and moved to West Cork to live with Alfie a couple of years before the murder.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Sorry, I didn't know that. I really thought I've heard that she moved back to England, - family and relatives and tired of the endless speculation about the murder as a reason. All would be understandable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    I understood route 5 was down the lane as the bend in the lane was out of frame. I have always believed Sophie left by the front door and went down the lane of her own accord. She recognised the visitor as a local who visited regularly. A confrontation at the gate into her lawn led to a scuffle and escalated to a vicious fight which left her badly injured and stuck in the briars and barbed wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭tibruit


    If she left by the front door, why did she lock herself out?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Yes, its the simplest explanation, requiring no night route marches, no hit men, no sex obsessed Gardai, spurned lovers or similar complexities. Classic Occam's razor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    She was locked out which ever door she left by.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 824 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Ah I see that now, although the text says steep, winding track, in reality it was the least treacherous way to go. It wouldn't have taken much to include it in the schematic but anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭tibruit


    That in itself is problematic for your theory. Why was there blood on the side door, but not the front door?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Simple really, whoever left the blood on the back door could also have tried the front door but left no blood. Anyway it’s got nothing to do with which door she used.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 824 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Revisiting the kitchen scene and just noting some observations. There was discussion about whether someone had met in the house with Sophie at some point, evidenced by the two wine glasses on the dishcloth. It can also be seen that there are two coffee cups too. Sophie may have just used them at separate times, however both are still upturned on the drying cloth, and the drying cloth is full, so they had to be coordinated around the cloth. Why would one navigate around an already dry coffee cup and/or wine glass. You would surely move the dry items to the side where there is still ample room on the wood. It would seem everything was used and the dried at the same time. Coffee is often used as an after dinner drink, however…. on the other hand sometimes orange juice is sometimes served in wine glasses. She had a lot of oranges in the house, far more than would typically be there for eating. I think she most likely liked freshly squeezed orange juice. This would also explain the fruit pieces in her stomach, as it would probably not be filtered. Maybe she had someone with her at breakfast. Two coffee cups, two orange juice glasses….. maybe not, all speculation.

    Kitchen setup.png


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