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Hamas strike on Israel

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,271 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    which you are skillfull at

    Sticking one's head up one's arse and simply denying the obvious isn't a skill.

    All that poster is doing is closing their eyes and ears to what Israel is doing because they cannot bear the reality of what's going on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭fergiesfolly


    How about we replace the term genocide with "murderous intent" and stop the pedantic back and forth about one word when it doesn't matter one whit to the people living and dieing in Gaza whether it's called one thing or another.

    And before anyone decides to utter that what's happening in Gaza isn't intentional or murderous, please have another look at the pictures, videos and eye witness testimonials coming from the place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,993 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    they weren't considered genocide because it wasn't an effort to destroy an entire people.

    It wasn't considered a crime against humanity because

    1. That term didn't exist then.
    2. The victors never tried themselves for those acts. They would certainly be considered crimes against humanity today.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,833 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,953 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    This flippant post re the destruction bulldozers bothered me. Are you that fooled by the Israel propaganda or do you hate Gazans that much that you can normalise what is happening in Gaza? Do you think Israel are moving the population into concentration camps so that they can level and rebuild Gaza for them? What planet are you living on? Bringing in bulldozers to further destroy civilian infrastructure is wrong no matter what biases you have. Why are they doing it?? Are you that naive?? They have told us plenty of times that they will annex Gaza. Take off the blindfolds and blinkers and earplugs. A little honour please or the dehumanisation will prosper even further.

    Bulldozing whole towns and cities is not normal in any 'war'. Yet you have somehow readily accepted it. There are so many war crimes and breaches of IHL here and you cannot identify a single one (similar to @markodaly who refused to answer).

    Re Constant Displacement - Article 49 of the Fourth Convention provides that individual, or mass, forcible transfer, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, "regardless of their motive”.

    Civilians are under no duty to remove themselves from an area of conflict, although if they wish to leave, they may do so unless their departure is contrary to the national interests of the state (Article 35 of the Fourth Convention).  Further, Article 17 of Additional Protocol II provides that the displacement of civilians shall not be ordered unless “the security of the civilians involved or imperative military reasons so demand”.Where such displacements occur, all possible measures must be taken in order that the civilians are afforded satisfactory shelter, hygiene, safety and nutrition....it doesn't mean their homes should be flattened while they are gone!

    Re Collective Punishment - Article 55 of the Fourth Convention requires the Occupying Power, to the fullest extent of the means available to it, “to ensure food and medical supplies to the population.  It should, in particular, bring the necessary foodstuffs, medical stores and other articles if the resources of the occupied territory are inadequate”. Common Article 33 provides that collective punishment is a war crime. The act of Israel in cutting off water, electricity, food, and fuel to the population of Gaza punishes the entire population of Gaza for the acts of Hamas – is a collective punishment – as the objective of the siege is that of destroying Hamas. 

    Aid: Article 61 of the Fourth Convention requires the Occupying Power to agree relief schemes for the population of an occupied territory if it is inadequately supplied.  That Article goes on to provide, in addition, that all Contracting Parties shall endeavour to permit the transit and transport, free of charge, of relief consignments on their way to occupied territories…they are dying of starvation now while massive stocks of aid sit at the border.

    Re Hospitals - Article 19 of the First Convention provides that medical facilities shall not be attacked in any circumstances, but shall at all times be respected and protected. There is only 1 hospital left!

    Re Bulldozers - The Geneva Convention prohibits the destruction of civilian homes and infrastructure by an occupying power. What Israel is doing now is just the latest flagrant violation of IHL.

    But in your mind, it's just a renovation project. The mind boggles. Only Palestinians, only muslims.

    Post edited by Cluedo Monopoly on

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,993 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    The thing is that genocide is a legal term and it requires intent to commit genocide. That means that all too often we end up arguing about what Israel intends by it's actions.

    The thing is, whatever the intent, it's pretty fcuking horrific. It may be a genocide, but it's definitely war crimes. Because even if Israel doesn't intend to cause the damage it's doing, at the very least it doesn't care about the harm it's doing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 518 ✭✭✭freebritney


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/palestine-pledge-could-break-the-law-top-lawyers-warn-starmer-3lx0mv6lk

    I just googled the names on the list and as expected the vast majority are Jewish



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 518 ✭✭✭freebritney


    I see videos circulating on line of the Beitar Tel Aviv survivors of the Amsterdam pogrom marching through the streets of Bucharest chanting "Death to Arabs" and "Fu*k Palestine". I sincerely hope no harm comes to these poor innocent scamps.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,101 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Interesting snippet of info and very plausible:

    "US President Donald Trump recently warned a Jewish campaign donor that his MAGA base was beginning to turn on Israel, the Financial Times reports.

    “My people are starting to hate Israel,” Trump is quoted as having told the unnamed donor recently, citing a Mideast expert, also unnamed, with contacts inside the Trump administration.

    The report describes the donor as “prominent.”"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,636 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Ben Givir calling the Germans as being supporters of Nazi's. Looks like the place is imploding in on itself.

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,271 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Hopefully the Germans man up and tell them to get stuffed. It's long before time that they did.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 518 ✭✭✭freebritney


    The average American is starting to question why a congressman from Texas or Tennessee is more devoted to Israel than their own state. When you have AIPAC even distancing themselves from lunatics like Randy Fine you know the reckoning is coming. Their is no logical strategic, commercial or military reason for the USA to support Israel the way they it does outside of blatent bribery and coercion. The USA is committing suicide with their support of Israel.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,609 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    That is completely disingenuous and misrepresentation of posters' views.

    The only people I have seen on this thread who do not support a two-state solution are those Hamas supporters who have called for the elimination of Israel.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,609 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I haven't justified their actions, I have said that their actions don't amount to genocide in my opinion.

    I have also signalled that if they and Trump actually move forward on the resettlement of Gaza option, that my opinion could change.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,953 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Just as a reminder, Ireland recognised the state of Palestine on 28th May 2024. Most of us should be very proud that we made that historic move when it was easier to turn a blind eye.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭scottser


    Netenyahu's real surname is Mileikowsky. Jewish settlers historically pick a Hebrew name when they move to Israel to identify them apart from weak 'diaspora' Jews. Ben Gurion's name was Grun (sorry, can't do an umlaut), and he declared that anyone who joins the IDF must have a Hebrew name. All the notable Presidents and PMs had European or Eastern European names. It's a great way to deny and eradicate your history. In Ireland, our names were changed for us whereas the Israelis use it as a badge of superiority and to mark out those who are beneath them, as befits an apartheid ethnostate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    So you're still refusing to answer the question on whether you condemn their actions then?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 518 ✭✭✭freebritney


    It's not just Mileikowsky who wasn't from the region. They're all just migrants returning to their promised homeland.

    https://honestreporting.com/the-israeli-prime-ministers-who-were-they/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,609 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Which particular actions?

    Wars happen all the time. Protagonists in wars do bad things all the time. Some of those are justifiable, some of them are not.

    States have a right to defend themselves. Non-state actors have less rights in international law.

    Have Israel committed atrocities? Undoubtedly, yes, given what I have seen.

    Was that wrong? Yes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,101 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Israel have proposed no future government for Gaza, neither Hamas or even an anti-Hamas alternative. Israeli commentators say they are utterly baffled by the lack of a plan for Gaza, apart from the mooted ethnic cleansing of the entire Strip.

    It's not good enough to say 'Release the hostages and it all ends' (I've seen this message literally thousands of times from pro-Zionist accounts on social media). What happens next? What will Gaza be like in 2026 or 2027? Let's have some detail, otherwise that slogan is meaningless.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    Good you've finally admitted that Israel are wrong in their actions and committed atrocities, thank you.

    Mass starvation of children isn't really a state defending itself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,953 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    In this instance Israel have been defending themselves in this very one sided war by doing ALL of the murdering, maiming and starvation since November 2023.

    There were more children under the age of 1 murdered by Israel than people murdered on October 7th. Quite the defensive operation.

    Post edited by Cluedo Monopoly on

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,462 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    You defended the killing of an Irish peacekeeper by the IDF.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    Out of interest, at what point would you actually consider they are moving forward with that? I ask as it seems to me they've been moving forward with this for quite some time, and Netanyahu's enthusiastic cheerleading of Trump's plan (an enthusiasm which I must admit actually surprised me in its sheer nakedness) only seemed to confirm that - not to mention the various other statements we have heard coming from Israel as to what the real end goal is here.

    Whatever doubt there might have been as to Israel's genocidal intent (or at least, serious intent to commit war crimes), in my eyes anyway, was more or less stripped away with last year's attack on Rafah - where it seemed to become obvious that the Israelis were engaged in a focused campaign of making Gaza uninhabitable and life so unbearable for its people that (through a mixture of killing, destruction of infrastructure and living space, and people fleeing) the very concept of Gaza Palestinians ceases to exist.

    If you need something more definitive than that, well, it might be worth considering that the international chorus of criticism (even if you consider the cries of genocide premature) might actually be the only thing preventing it from happening, particularly as regards the growing disquiet in the US wherefrom Israel draws its strength.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,271 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    To frame this wanton slaughter as a nation "defending" themselves is a sick effort at deceptive and dishonest sleight of hand.

    Israel's conduct against Gaza, and Palestine as a whole, has gone way beyond defending itself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 518 ✭✭✭freebritney


    I've spoken to many relations and friends in the US and they nearly all have said how proud they are of the way Ireland has behaved on this issue. The tell me that in private the vast majority of people are horrified by Israel's actions but that speaking out is literal career suicide in many sectors.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 727 ✭✭✭sheepysheep


    Neither is a country's right to exist 'A thing', however, there are plenty of them, and a goodly portion have been formed through war, and would take it pretty sourly if told they no longer had a right to exist.

    Were there Jews in the geographic region of Palestine 3000 years ago, 2000 years ago, 1900 years ago, 1200 years ago?

    Well, yes there were! There has been a contineous Jewish presence there for millenia, the fact that the population had dropped for various reasonds doesn't change that, so by your own metric Israel was formed out of the people who lived there at the time it was formed. Whether the population was minimal is irrevelant, it's establishes them as an ethnic group in the region, and absolutely justified in forging their own nation.

    It should be obvious that your arguement that Jews don't have a right to a homeland because it isn't 'A thing' completly undermines your own arguement that Palestians are entitled to one. It's a contridiction. Why is the Palestinian right to have a country acceptable, but not Jews.

    Palestinians most certainly had a say in 1948. They enthuastically joined an Arab war against the newly formed state of Israel, confident that the new state would be wiped off the face of the map. Many of 'The Nakba' didn't flee, they simply left a warzone, confident that they would be returning in a few short weeks to their dead neighbours now vacent properties. However, as we all know, the war did not go the way the Arabs/Palestinians expected.

    Israel was created legally by UN mandate. Your entire post is just another longwinded rehash of the oppressor/oppressed coloniser/colonised narrative beloved of left wing loonies everywhere, and a denial of Israel's right to exist as - takes breath- an illegal settler colonial occupier oppressor Zionist entity.

    Whether Jordan has water or not, it's still old-school Palestinian land. Why don't you suggest that Jordan gets folded into the West Bank to become a new Palestinain state along with Gaza? Why does the Jordanian occupation of Palestinian lands not trouble you?

    For someone who is very vocal on ethnic cleansing, it's interesting that your only attempted solution for the West Bank is a declared ethnic cleansing of Jews from the region.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,009 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Posters calling for Hamas to disband (and rightly so) must also see the atrocities committed by the IDF and call for their disbandment too. They are a murderous rabble and every bit as bad, if not worse, than Hamas.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 727 ✭✭✭sheepysheep




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 727 ✭✭✭sheepysheep


    If you see Hamas as simply an excuse, I don't know what to say.

    A radical extremist terrorist organisation sent some of its brigades across the border to kill and capture Jews.

    The only possible result was all-out war, formally declared days later. Every single country with a military, in such a situation would have gone to war.

    Given that Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth would you not say that keeping losses to 60k is more indicitive of Israel's desire not to kill vast swathes of people that the opposite.

    I mean, for the record, what are acceptable losses in such a theatre?

    The British didn't flatten Belfast for obvious reasons. However, they did tell Collins that they'd flatten Dublin if he didn't sort Rory O'Connor out double quick time.

    Cities get flattened during war. Look at Dresden, Mariupol, Stalingrad, the towns around Passchendaele. Nothing particulary unusual about it.

    The war in southern Lebanon ended quickly when Hezbollah surrendered. The war in Gaza could have ended a year ago. That is competely on Hamas.



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