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Nurse suspended for objecting to a male doctor in changing room

  • 25-07-2025 12:35PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭


    The second and concluding part of an employment tribunal into women’s right to have single sex changing rooms is taking place in Edinburgh. The case began in February but was postponed until now after it became apparent that the hospital concerned had not made all the relevant evidence available, in particular many emails pertaining to the reasons for the nurse’s suspension.

    The BBC’s coverage is scant and frankly often incomprehensible but the Scottish Herald is covering it live.

    I’m travelling and on my phone so I’ll put up more information about the events later but todays live coverage and comment is fascinating.

    I haven’t yet found how to share the Herald’s articles but there’s a special offer of 3 months sub for £1 which I’d recommend to anyone wanting to follow it.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



«1345

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,202 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Last week, Sandie Peggie was cleared of misconduct. Therefore, the internal process that she was subjected to since her suspension in January 2024 is over.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/16/nurse-sandie-peggie-cleared-of-misconduct-in-trans-doctor-changing-room-row-in-scotland

    Her case has been covered by the BBC. Here is the BBC's most recent article on the case.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce9x9n2vz34o



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,939 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Interesting. I read the BBC site every day, and don't recall seeing this story. Its not on the main site today https://www.bbc.com/news/, nor is it here: https://www.bbc.com/news/scotland

    You can see it on the main page on this regional page:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/scotland/edinburgh_east_and_fife



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,778 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    The ramifications from this tribunal will be felt far and wide, specially after the FWS Supreme Court ruling in London earlier this year. Sandie Peggie has already been exonerated and cleared of any wrong doing. Heads will roll @ NHS Fife.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭archfi


    I've been reading some of @tribunaltweets on X and it is quite unbelievable the level of indoctrination imbued in management level and even more unfortunate for patients, at doctor level.

    When the female "DEI lead" doesn't know if she's a woman because she hasn't had a DNA/Chromosome test (her words) but she thinks she's female (her words) but she's sure Dr Upton is a woman (her words) you know the degree of insanity accelerated by "education/re-education/hooman rights" is beyond comprehension to wider society. The appartchiks are EVERYWHERE and the product of our education systems. God help us.

    Hopefully, this case should wake up a good few more but as seen above on the BBC website it's buried in the regional pages.

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    This case just gets crazier and crazier. There is a strong question over the Dr in question's fitness to practice medicine.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Every time you think it can’t get crazier, it does. However the coverage by media like the BBC and ITV is so biased that anyone who relies on them for their information won’t grasp just how inappropriate Upton’s actions have been, and the extent to which the NHS blatantly enabled it all.

    Latest example: after first titling with an accurate summary of a massively signifiant finding, the BBC re-edited with a much blander title.

    The IT expert for Sandie Peggie demonstrated that it was not possible for Upton’s allegedly contemporaneous notes of Peggie’s “misbehaviour” to have edit dates anterior to the claimed date of creation, other than by deliberate fakery.

    This is particularly important because the edits that were subsequently added concerned the alleged patient safety incident (of which she has been exonerated) while the original notes were about Peggie’s refusal to undress in the changing room with Upton present.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,529 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Just imagine, in 2025, that there is a woamn who isn't sure whether or not she is a woman, yet she is sure that her male colleague is a woman.

    You couldn't make it up.

    How anybody can vote for the Soc Dems or Labour is beyond me.

    If they believe all of this rubbish, how could they be in Govt?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    Well, thanks to Sandie Peggie, the BS farcical nature surrounding this debacle is beginning to be fully exposed with more people exposed to the truth. MSM too.

    The fact that women’s rights have to be pulled out from under the trans issue & language use and kept separate highlights to everyone none of this abuse should have happened or come about in the first place.

    The Trans community need to exist in harmony with all other communities and not seek to steal or eradicate another group’s rights in order to exist.

    Women are not dolls nor do they have women penises. Society does not need any of the abusive women-hating trans language that has been created over the last 10 years or so.

    This has always been about women’s rights and nothing whatsoever to do with trans rights. Upton is an abusive, lying, manipulating individual and NHS Fife management, including their legal representation, have completely lost their marbles in plain sight of everyone. There’s no hiding anymore

    Female/Woman as a biological sex classification is sacrosanct. It doesn’t belong to anyone else.

    ““Half the world is composed of people who have something to say and can't, and the other half who have nothing to say and keep on saying it.” - Robert Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Yes it’s positively crazed, yet Sandie Peggie very nearly lost her career after 30 years for daring to stand up to them.

    Here’s a quote from a Scottish “rights” organisation with the kind of language they want to impose on people:

    So women should call their vagina a “front hole” to avoid giving offence … but MEN can refer to their artificial “thing” as a vagina. Madness.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭OscarMIlde


    Note that it is the biological women's anatomical feature which has been co-opted for sole use of transwomen (biological men) and biological women must use the disgusting phrase 'front hole' instead. The male anatomical feature 'dicks' can be used to refer to any sexes external genitals solely to cover for the fact that many of these transwomen (biological males) are fully intact and have no intention of removing their penises.

    It's an encapsulation of the entire transactivist agenda. Transpeople (and lets be honest it's nearly always transwomen e.g. biological men) first, their needs and preferred identification over all others. Women need to capitulate and pretend that their biological features belong not to them but to people who identify as them instead. The choice of 'front hole' to refer to biological women's genitalia shows the absolute disrespect they have for women, and how that's all they consider our vagina, as a mere hole instead of a wondrous organ that is capable of actually stretching and expanding when birthing human life.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    That’s absolutely it: a vagina to them is just a “hole” - I’ve seen it even more bluntly referred to as a “**** hole”. The logic of prize winning transgender writer Andrea Long Chu: “getting fucked makes you female because fucked is what a female is”. 

    How anyone can continue to think that this ideology is compatible with feminism is beyond me. It’s not even compatible with treating women as people rather than as animated sex toys. Dr Upton wanted nurse Sandie Peggie to have to undress in front of him, and thought he could ruin her career for refusing to do so. And very nearly succeeded.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭eeepaulo


    Over in the uk gender critical beliefs are protected against discrimination by the equality act, as well as the recent supreme court ruling that stated that trans rights are human rights, and womens rights are human rights, they just arent the same.

    How would our laws apply if a nurse said she was uncomfortable sharing a single sex space with someone she perceives to be a man?

    (i realise that sandie peggie was retrospectively suspended for a hate incident, bullying and harassment and patient care issues but going by whats coming out in the tribunal about missing emails, dates of contemporaneous notes being made up, not recalling etc)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    What is it with Scotland? So many organisations have lost the plot. Any registered non-profit lobby group should lose their official standing with regulatory bodies for advocating the butchering of women’s identity via biological language.

    At some point they must’ve believed women on the whole were a push over and failed to realised the power of the push back. SC’s clarity in the law was brought about by women fighting for the protection of their rights. As a result the trans aggression increased ten fold, death threats the norm, all coming from biological males.

    Very few women support this idiocy now. I don’t know any who do? Am I unique in that?

    Back in the day, the Trans movement had lots of sympathy, kindness and good will from most women, but that’s long gone.

    ““Half the world is composed of people who have something to say and can't, and the other half who have nothing to say and keep on saying it.” - Robert Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    Absolutely! It’s a very heightened aggressive form of systemic misogyny. They want to get rid of women in language: biologically, intellectually.. a complete and total take over. No wonder they’re determined to get into primary schools and influence the curriculum.

    ““Half the world is composed of people who have something to say and can't, and the other half who have nothing to say and keep on saying it.” - Robert Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    I didn’t manage to edit the OP within the required 24 hours to add a timeline for the case, so here is one now.

    (Normally I would use the BBC or similar, but their coverage has been woeful - deliberately so it seems. As for the Guardian - crickets. No mention of Sandie Peggie or NHS Fife in their pages at all so far.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,048 ✭✭✭Jack Daw


    Upton should be struck off the medical register.He's clearly not fit to practice medicine as he's insane and he's clearly an horrific bully/potential abuser.

    The doctors had their shower facilities to themselves on the other side of the hospital but he decided to go out of his way to use the nurses facilities.

    The people in the hospital who enabled him by not simply telling him to use the facilities designated for Doctors are as big a problem, they need to all be removed aswell.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Yes, it’s possible that it will be much more complicated to fix this problem in Ireland, because of the madness that is the 2015 GRA and self declaration. In fact I started the thread below in May to explore this question in light of the UK Supreme Court’s finding about their Equality Act saying that one cannot in fact change sex:

    It’s not completely clear to me that an Irish court might not find that the GRA means that someone with a GR certificate had indeed changed sex. Australia after all has already said this, in Tickle v Giggle, so it’s not a given that nobody could possibly be that stupid. They can.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 667 ✭✭✭BP_RS3813


    I don't believe its 'systemic misogyny' or some conspiracy theory to degrade womens rights. The degredation of them is a consequence sure, but its not the idealogy/purpose of the crusade.

    Its an idealogy taken too far and acceptance/incusivity being taken too far. The idea that you can be anything you want to be is bullsh*t and telling kids that they can was a mistake which has led to people wanting to change their gender/biology (the same thing). A man is a man and a women is a women. They are defined by their sex organs and how they act in society.

    In this world X should be X and Y should be Y. Some things cannot be compromised on.

    You wouldn't tell a kid with dyspraxia that he can be a surgeon, nor a kid with dyscalculia that he can be a maths teacher yet here we are now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    I could not disagree more. For the simple reason of how quickly and deeply it became embedded in over what? 10 years? 15? During which time women could not voice an opinion, be critical objectively without being accused and shamed for being crazy haters, bigots, far-right horrible anti-trans.

    We saw women & girls lose their jobs, their careers, university sport placements, the whole lot.. without a doubt, this has really felt like a complete take over on every level. Definitely systemic.. not a casual hit & miss ideology.

    Sandie Peggie’s case, thankfully, is the first real sign women are now on a positive footing in the fight to claim back their rights.

    ““Half the world is composed of people who have something to say and can't, and the other half who have nothing to say and keep on saying it.” - Robert Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,221 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    If so, then why were extraneous allegations of 'failures of patient care' thrown into NHS Fife's investigation of Miss Peggie for gross misconduct?

    Allegations for which there wasn't a shred of justification. She had a 30 year record of service behind her.

    It that wasn't attempted systemic degradation of her rights and her reputation, I don't know what is.

    In fact, I hope she sues the arse off the Trust for it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,994 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Oh great, another trans thread. Obsessed much?

    Also, the title misgenders the Dr.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    If this weeks throws up more criminal shenanigans, watch the NHS sit back and throw all those middle managers under the bus. All their legal side can is to continue on the same vein as last week.. muddy the water with their hysteria regarding the language argument of Upton as a he or a she. If he was a she they wouldn’t be in court FFS.

    Also there was talk on X last week of him not being happy she hid to change her blood soaked clothes. Yet another women would’ve offered help and immediately allowed Sandie privacy. Upton was there for fetish and power hungry reasons, the more she resisted the more determined he got to punish her every which way and use the NHS to try to destroy her career.

    What a creepy perverted scary nutcase - which describes the court case too, by the way.

    ““Half the world is composed of people who have something to say and can't, and the other half who have nothing to say and keep on saying it.” - Robert Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,812 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    There are multiple Guardian articles on this topic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭horse7


    I worked in st James hospital Dublin and only 1 changing room per ward. Both male and female. There was never any issues.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,414 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    That Upton fella is a nasty piece of work who had all the 'right on' folk wrapped around his little finger so that he can bully and harass the nurse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,074 ✭✭✭Montage of Feck


    Have we learned nothing from the abuse in the Catholic church?

    🙈🙉🙊



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,048 ✭✭✭Jack Daw


    Well this has nothing to do with sport so in that case it can't be put int the other transgender related thread on the forum.

    It's people like you obsessed with misgendering and respecting the gender identity of obvious creeps like Upton who have allowed this sort of situation to exist in the first place, if people were allowed to call people like Upton out on their bullshit from day 1 this sort of situation wouldn't have occurred.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Were the staff expected to strip off to their underwear in front of random other staff of the opposite sex. If so, that contravenes employment law which specifies that separate male and female facilities must be available.

    And if there are some employees bothered by that, then it doesn’t matter that others like yourself find it perfectly acceptable. No more than the fact that some employees are happy to do unpaid overtime does not remove legal obligations to pay overtime.

    .

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Actually there aren’t, not of this second part of the case, and certainly no live coverage such as the Herald have been providing.

    There were some articles about the first part of the case, in February, mostly oriented against Sandie Peggie and for poor oppressed Beth Upton, but since then there has been one article grudgingly acknowledging that Sandie P had been cleared of the patient safety allegations that Upton had made against her - which was a separate investigation to this Employment tribunal.

    But I have found nothing so far in the Guardian about the second part of the tribunal, which had to take place months after the first part only because it became clear during the initial hearings that the defence had withheld multiple documents.Again, is there anything in the Guardian’s very limited coverage from that time that makes this clear?

    So if you know of these “multiple articles” about the July hearings, I’d really love a link. I haven’t seen any, but perhaps I just missed them.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    The reason for a new thread has been explained by another poster, but do feel free to ignore any threads you are not interested in. That’s what I do.

    As for the reference to Dr Upton’s sex, as the judge agreed at the outset the whole case hinges on whether Beth Upton is male or female, so referring to Upton as female would make the arguments incomprehensible. Language matters, and expecting the rest of the world to accept your Humpty Dumpty approach to it won’t work any more. Precisely because of people like Beth Upton who abuse other people’s desire to be kind.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



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