Hamas strike on Israel

That poll says exactly what mine did. Where does it mention that they are in anyway concerned with the IDF's treatment of Gazans? Their concern is hostages.

I don't need to show you that Israelis want 2 million Gazans killed, that wasn't my claim. My claim is that I don't trust that Israeli government or military doesn't want that. They are already committing genocide, so it isn't a great leap for me to assume they would have no qualms about finishing the job. Their military tactics and politicians distributing rhetoric over the last two years point to this.

My point is, polls show 75% of Jewish Israelis are indifferent to the suffering of Gazans. So I don't believe those 75% will put enormous pressure on the government once the hostages are returned, should they decide to finish the job in destroying Gazans. Your claim was that they would, and you have provided no proof for that.

They were set to be release in states. Stage 1 had gone smoothly and some were released. Israel then saw fit to return to violence and break the agreement which would have seen the rest of the hostages released. But that is not their priority.

That seems to be your opinion, not a fact, backed by reports I've read.

explain it away on what hamas may or may not have thought.

We know what Hamas are thinking, because they have said it themselves. This will go down in the long list of bad decisions made by Palestinians.

The UN should be deployed as peace keepers to oversee the distribution of food safely. Stop Israel committing war crimes and genocidal acts. Otherwise they are furthering the future violence.

I've better odds at winning the Euromillions than that happening. A new UN mission has not been approved since 2014.
Say that happens and Israel continues with the war, are you saying the UN should be authorised to use deadly force against the IDF…? Say they do, and the IDF retaliates and outguns the UN, then what?

Jewish commentators are/were critical of Ireland not doing enough during the holocaust to aid other allied forces and speak out about what was going on; we were a small player then and are a relatively small player now yet we are not alone in speaking out and should do so. Israel cannot cherry pick which genocidal and violent acts against an innocent populace should be highlighted.

What stopped the holocaust?

Was it a strongly worded letter, or an actual army?

Yes "really" - Israel are not keeping the Egyptians and Jordanians confined within ever changing borders and restricting their movement within their own countries in the same manner as the Palestinians so the analogy is frankly nonsense.

The point is of course is that Palestine has yet to agree to a treaty of sorts with Israel. I'll repeat, 5 times they were offered their own state, and they refused each time. Yet Israel is at fault for this? Palestinian leader continued to life in denial of reality and chose to fight, with an ever-decreasing hand to play. Now they are a busted flush. Yea it sucks, I am no fan of new settlements in the West Bank.

The 9/11 scepticism jibe doesn't really land because you haven't really got a clue what you're on about. It's not some wild conspiracy theory; it's well known and widley publicised that Israel had warnings from Egypt and from their own intelligence agencies that planning was affot and also there was an impending attack. The taking of Israelie hostages was specifically mentioned. It's been discussed on this thread a number of times.

No, I am well aware that there were intelligence reports that were dismissed out of hand because they seemed to be too ambitious. An intelligence failure is what it was…

But that is very different to what you just said, that it was a deliberate failure to ignore these reports, as a part of some grand scheme by Bibi and his cabinet so they can do what they want to Gaza.

The former is what happened (like 9/11) the latter is a wild conspiracy theory. You seem to be pushing the latter.

But if "might is right" why are we bothering to help? Why don't we apply the "us arguing about it in Ireland matters not" 'principle'…

Because it's in Europe's and the US's interest that Putin loses and does not get emboldened to take back parts of the Baltic and other chunks of Eastern Europe.

"Might is right" does not mean every man for himself. That is where alliances come into play, like NATO. NATO is mighter than Russia, hence why Putin wants to weaken it.

So then we just stand aside an let it happen without comment and/or consequence…..I'll go back to the same statements in relation to Northern Ireland; should we just allow the state to revert back to it's previous ideology?

No, I didnt say let it happen. We can of course lobby for peace and do all the Jaw-Jaw needed. But ultimately, you need to carry a big stick. Would you favour military action against Israel, by Ireland or even the EU, to stop their war in Gaza?
After all the talking, all the lobbying and so on, if that came to nought, how far are you willing to go?

You're conveniently forgetting the Israeli violence at the same time and attempting to white wash jewish terrorist actions pre/post the state being established.

Not at all. From the outset, there is not much difference between Zionist violence and Arab/Palestinian violence, apart from one key thing. One side won and the other side lost. That is what happens in wars. The winners get the spoils, the losers get to go home and think it over. This is why the Palestinians are so weak now. If this conflict were being conducted 1000 or even a few hundred years ago, the Palestinians would be annihilated, like many peoples and tribes since and before.

History is brutal and doesn't care about your feelings. Where are the descendants of Carthage or Thebes? Most people would have never heard of Champa or the Dzungar people.

The devil is in the detail of what they were offered. Just because they wouldn't accept a bad deal, doesn't make them simply bad actors in every instance. Jews also turned down other locations in Africa for the similar reason post WW2; were they the same?

The Palestinian leadership were simply too stupid and too corrupt to realise they didnt have that good a hand to play. If you offered them any of the deals of the past right now, they would bite the hand off you. That ship has sailed and its firmly and squarely on the Palestinians. No one else…

So 25 years later you're ok to throw out the entire play book on international law and say "hey its 2025".

Me, No. Its not my choice. I dont get a say. But I can read the tea leaves, like others. By all means advocate for useless talking shops like the UN.

So we, and Europe should simply roll over and accpet our lot what ever comes? Say nothing and "might is right" shall dictate our outcome?

Not at all. Recognise how weak we are. The big 3 players in the world are the USA, China and Russia. We, the EU don't even feature. Macron has been banging on about this for years, and Mertz also gets it.
It seems our world position of weakness is finally dawning on folks, hence why there is a gearing up for re-arming Europe.

Yes; you don't want to grasp that "might is right" isn't acceptable and there are other ways to wield power.

Such as?

Ukraine woke up to this cold hard fact in Feb, 2022. Palestine is also getting a harsh lesson.

People have been talking for years about these issues…

Unless you can exert hard power, forget it.

74% of Israelis want peace once the hostages come home.

That was my claim that once the hostages are released, Israel will stop this conflict.

You seem to think that Israel will continue the war, even after the hostages are released. Even though a vast majority of Israeli's would be against it.
Never mind that you think Israel wants to kill 2 million Gazan's which I presume is the ultimate aim of Israel?

The opinion that Israel would continue the war indefinitely, even if all hostages were released, is not credible nor born out of fact.

Is it not. What about the statements from the far right ministers that are effectively a call for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians out of Gaza. Even Bibi welcomed the idea when he endorsed Donnie's plan. Are you going to say he didn't mean it- that it wasn't endorsing the forced displacement of Palestinians from Gaza. Do you think Palestinians should accept this? Imagine if the situation was reversed, would you expect Israelis to agree to leave without resistance. I don't see the war ending after the hostages are released if this is the true aim of Israel-and it's hard to see how it isn't ,when the defense minister has called for Palestinians to be locked into a new city in Rafah with a view to them eventually leaving for another country. Are you going to disingenuously suggest it's all ok because it will all be voluntary?

Genocide could mean killing 5% or 10% of a population. This is very clearly laid out in international law :

"Genocide is the intentional destruction, in whole or in part, of a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group. This includes acts like killing members of the group, causing them serious harm, deliberately inflicting conditions of life intended to bring about their physical destruction, imposing measures to prevent births, or forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

Note also how Israel potentially falls into the genocide category even without necessarily killing Gazan people.

That seems to be your opinion, not a fact, backed by reports I've read.

Far from it; how else did they secure the release of the hostages earlier this year that you yourself referenced. It's been well documented yet you simply do not want to enlighten your simply entrenched viewpoint.

On January19th the first phase of that deal began and both sides unilaterally released hostages as agreed. this phase ended March 1st. The second phase was set to kick in 16 days later and would have included the exchange of all the remaining hostages and the establishment of a permanent ceasefire. In phase three, the bodies of all dead hostages were to be returned and a commitment made to rebuild Gaza.

However; Israel reneged on this agreement, whihc was demonstrably working for both sides, and attempted to make a news deal to which Hamas rejected, wishing to continue with the agreement they had and were working with. Israel then blocked aid and renewed their attacks.

This is widely known and published so to stick your fingers in your ears and say "nah, just sounds like your opinion" is either wilful ignorance of reality or stupidity. You choose.

Saying I didn't read about it (conveniently) doesn't make the facts go away unfortunately.

We know what Hamas are thinking, because they have said it themselves. This will go down in the long list of bad decisions made by Palestinians.

So we're back to equating the Palestinans as Hamas….despite quite literally stating in a previous post today to say you weren't saying that…..

I've better odds at winning the Euromillions than that happening. A new UN mission has not been approved since 2014.
Say that happens and Israel continues with the war, are you saying the UN should be authorised to use deadly force against the IDF…? Say they do, and the IDF retaliates and outguns the UN, then what?

Say this, say that….

The IDF, should they attack UN peace keepers, should face the ramifications of their actions. Should the IDF be permitted to do as they wish against (the clue is in the name) the peacekeepers of the United Nations in which the are a member? Should they face no repercussions? That's what you're suggesting.

What stopped the holocaust?

Was it a strongly worded letter, or an actual army?

Back to the "strongly worded letter" nonsense. The difference being, and you aren't the first to falsely equate the WW2 analogy to Gaza, is that there were two armed forces (comprised of multiple states) actively fighting. Gaza is not a comparable scenario.

The point is of course is that Palestine has yet to agree to a treaty of sorts with Israel. I'll repeat, 5 times they were offered their own state, and they refused each time. Yet Israel is at fault for this? Palestinian leader continued to life in denial of reality and chose to fight, with an ever-decreasing hand to play. Now they are a busted flush. Yea it sucks, I am no fan of new settlements in the West Bank.

Repeating it 5 times doesn't make a bad point any better. If I offer you a demonstrably bad deal and you don't take it, you aren't automatically the bad actor in the process. It's simplistic to suggest otherwise.

I note you don't fault Israel for any agreement proposals they don't readily agree to; why must it always be the interests of Israel that must be served.

No, I am well aware that there were intelligence reports that were dismissed out of hand because they seemed to be too ambitious. An intelligence failure is what it was…

But that is very different to what you just said, that it was a deliberate failure to ignore these reports, as a part of some grand scheme by Bibi and his cabinet so they can do what they want to Gaza.

The former is what happened (like 9/11) the latter is a wild conspiracy theory. You seem to be pushing the latter.

So you are/were aware but just not aware enough to post a silly question about it. And your awareness only extends to a small bit of it so that you can continue with the "conspiracy nut" line to ad weight to a failing argument.

Just because you don't have knowledge of something, doesn't make the reality false.

Because it's in Europe's and the US's interest that Putin loses and does not get emboldened to take back parts of the Baltic and other chunks of Eastern Europe.

Ah so when it's US interests at play then "might is not quite right" and we use military, economic and legal supports where necessary.

But when not is boiled down to "might is right" and lets see who comes out of it the "winner". And we'll engage with said "winner" to benefit ourselves where necessary.

"Might is right" does not mean every man for himself. That is where alliances come into play, like NATO. NATO is mighter than Russia, hence why Putin wants to weaken it.

It seems it's every man (woman and child) for themselves when you deem them not to be worthy of US/EU interests.

No, I didnt say let it happen. We can of course lobby for peace and do all the Jaw-Jaw needed. But ultimately, you need to carry a big stick. Would you favour military action against Israel, by Ireland or even the EU, to stop their war in Gaza?
After all the talking, all the lobbying and so on, if that came to nought, how far are you willing to go?

Hurting Israel economically and ceasing supply of their military equipment etc. could be done with the flick of a pen (you're strongly worded letter aside). Restrictions on Israeli movement and influence as a repercussion would hurt them without endangering lives. Sanctions can always be escalated.

Not at all. From the outset, there is not much difference between Zionist violence and Arab/Palestinian violence, apart from one key thing. One side won and the other side lost. That is what happens in wars. The winners get the spoils, the losers get to go home and think it over. This is why the Palestinians are so weak now. If this conflict were being conducted 1000 or even a few hundred years ago, the Palestinians would be annihilated, like many peoples and tribes since and before.

And why are they simply not being annihilated in such a manner that is consigned to history; the rule of international law and the globalised world in which they now operate. They simply know they could not survive.

History is brutal and doesn't care about your feelings. Where are the descendants of Carthage or Thebes? Most people would have never heard of Champa or the Dzungar people.

The excuses are getting worse - "Sure it happened before, they should just consign themselves to the history books"

It was the Jewish groups who, after WW2, continue the expression of "Never again" in relation to these types attrocities. Yet it seems to be "Never Again…with some exceptions"

History is brutal, it doesnt' mean we are bound to it and most have moved on. That much is plain to see in the world we live today. To put forward "history is brutal" as a justification is nonsense.

The Palestinian leadership were simply too stupid and too corrupt to realise they didnt have that good a hand to play. If you offered them any of the deals of the past right now, they would bite the hand off you. That ship has sailed and its firmly and squarely on the Palestinians. No one else…

So they should just accept their lot and multiple generations accept that they are secondary to their neighbour? The fact you don't see that as problematic and bound to result in conflict is a blinkered viewpoint that is beyond reason.

Me, No. Its not my choice. I dont get a say. But I can read the tea leaves, like others. By all means advocate for useless talking shops like the UN.

So why comment then if you're content with your tea leaf readings.

Others will advocate for solutions other than "might is right".

Not at all. Recognise how weak we are. The big 3 players in the world are the USA, China and Russia. We, the EU don't even feature. Macron has been banging on about this for years, and Mertz also gets it.
It seems our world position of weakness is finally dawning on folks, hence why there is a gearing up for re-arming Europe.

The EU and Europe certainly does feature. The US has shown itself to be a bad faith actor on the world stage, the EU and our inclusion couldn't be more pressing at this time. There are multiple options to affect change in a globalised world.

Such as?

Ukraine woke up to this cold hard fact in Feb, 2022. Palestine is also getting a harsh lesson.

People have been talking for years about these issues…

Unless you can exert hard power, forget it.

Hard power has multiple prongs; Ukraine being a case in point for this yet you don't want the same for Israel; you're content the Palestinians (not Hamas notably) are getting a harsh lesson. You're also content to ignore the multi-generational "harsh lessons" Israel have been dishing out to them which culminated in the attack of Oct'23.

keep arguing those semantics. Sad sad person.

Mod Edit: Warned for personal abuse

To think a (I can only assume) grown adult get's their jollies from exchanges like this.

This is so weird . Why is it so hard for you to say yes ?

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20250206-80-of-israeli-jews-support-us-president-trumps-proposal-to-ethnically-cleanse-gaza-survey-finds/

Probably before it became inconvenient to murder babies. Now Israeli's can't party on Syros.

No.

Hopefully you'll **** off now and stop asking stupid questions.

Mod Edit: Warned for personal abuse

Yes, 100%. Genocide, war crimes, mass murder, terrorism….all labels apply.

The idea that posters here don't acknowledge that October 7th was profoundly wrong and depraved is quite a bogus one.

Antisemites calling out israel on it's behaviour again.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-israel-made-itself-responsible-for-gaza-and-for-all-the-death-and-destruction-there/?utm_campaign=most_popular&utm_source=website&utm_medium=article_end&utm_content=2

Sorry, not antisemites. A jewish person in the times of israel.

I think we need to clear somethings up here. What happened on October 7th was although understandable was at the same time indefensible. Palestinians have been persecuted since 1948 by the Jews. Gaza has been on open air prison camp for decades.

October 7th gave Bibi and his Zionists nutcases the perfect excuse to start ethnic cleansing Gaza of Palestinians a task which they have engaged in with relish sadly supported by the U.S. Given how tight security is in Israel it beggars belief that Hamas we able to carry out the attack.

Israel supported the coming into being of Hamas as a way to dilute support for the PLO. So basically the monster that Israel helped create has come back to bite it.

Given the holocaust which aimed to erase the Jewish population in Europe it is truly tragic to see the descendants of those who perished seeking to do the same to Palestinians in Gaza. Israel has forfeited its right to exist. Let there be a free Palestine from the river to the sea. The Zionists cannot be allowed to prevail.

I have no wish to see on Jew die in pursuit of a free Palestine. I do wish to see those who have perpetrated the genocide in Gaza brought to the Hague. Each and every one of them. I also wish to see Shatter kicked out of Ireland. What an appalling reality to think the bastard was a minister in an Irish government and supports genocide.