Immigration and Ireland - MEGATHREAD *Mod Note Added 14/08/25*

I am going to reply as if you are arguing in good faith one last time, though my experience with you in the past here is that I will be wasting my time.

I’d agree with that in principle, but then you spend the rest of your post abusing the left and holding up the right as the only ones who care about ordinary people. It’s a funny way of moving past it.

I put forward a proposition - we should move past Left vs Right - and then I explain why. If I'd just said "we should move past Left vs Right, it wouldn't have made a lot of sense. I followed that statement by showing why we should - i.e. because the traditional positions of Left vs Right don't work any more, as those positions have moved.

You’re making some fairly sweeping claims. Like the idea that all people on the left believe homeless people are homeless by choice, or that those who can’t afford a home should be embarrassed. I haven’t heard any elected leftwing politician say anything like that.

I wouldn't expect you to have heard any elected politician come out and say that, as it would be political suicide - I clearly stated in this thread.

The bit about the left wanting “unlimited immigration to suppress wages”, it sounds more like a slogan than a serious argument.

I agree totally - so why are so many on this thread defending it so vehemently?

If you are worried about immigration being used to drive down wages, fair enough, but it’s hardly the left who’ve been in power the last 20 years signing off on those policies.

You obviously missed the bit where I pointed out that the opposition have utterly failed in their role of holding the government to account…….

It’s been Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and they are not exactly running around calling themselves socialists.

See last point above.

Then there’s the claim that the left only care about Palestine or Ukraine and not about housing or homelessness here at home.

That’s just not true. You might not like their positions, or maybe you disagree with how they go about things, but to suggest they’ve abandoned domestic issues altogether is pure bad faith.

What positions? SF are literally obsessed with Palestine. Obsessed. It is the one subject they are constant and consistent on. Yes they will occasionally stray off to talk about housing, homelessness, or American Supervalu, but only so Mary Lou can snipe in the Dail for the cameras - SF could absolutely destroy FFFG on housing - it is the most open goal in politics, the easiest policy to hammer them on. Yet SF can't get a meaningful policy document together. It's not that they haven't the ability - there are at least two SF TD's I know that could produce a housing document that would be a sure-fire vote getter, and would have won either of the last two elections. But they didn't. Perhaps you should be asking them why? I asked one of the aforementioned TD's that question, and he couldn't give me a straight answer.

And this idea that only the “far right” are looking out for working-class Irish people, come on. Since when?

Where are the far-right proposals for improved workers rights, rent controls, or proper social housing?

The concern seems to start and end with slogans, violence and racism.

There is no right wing party in Ireland that has ever been anywhere near power, so I don't know how you can ask for their proposals - it's a little disingenuous to let SF (a party that is in power in the north, and has somehow managed to avoid winning an election that was theirs for the taking here) off the hook for policy, and then demand utopian proposals from a non-existent right.

If people are feeling abandoned or ignored, maybe that’s because the centre parties have coasted along for too long. The left wing parties in the dail represent the only option for political change.

The truth is, there are problems across the board.

The left can tie itself in knots with some social issues.

The right often can wander off into conspiracy land and racist ideals.

And the so-called centre are often too comfortable to care.

Little problem with the above - we'd pretty much agree on it. Where we diverge is the left being the only option for change - they have been in a position to do so (SF "accidentally" not running enough candidates, Labour actually being in government and doing nothing good, the Greens being in government and destroying the country once, and trying to the second time) - the left have as bad a track record in Ireland as anyone else, let's not pretend otherwise.

But pretending one side is full of hypocrites and the other full of saviours isn’t helping anyone. It’s just more of the same tribal guff and all it results in is the same tired policies of the civil war parties.

Agreed - I don't think one side is all bad, and the other all good - what I do think is that one side thinks it is the "good" side and the other side are all evil nazis. That has left them (forgive the pun) in a position where they are blind to their own shortcomings. Look at this thread - the posters who are on the "left" rarely put forward solutions, instead they just attack any solution as racist, or fascist or whatever. Nobody in this thread on the left will even countenance any suggestion that there is a real problem with immigration. That puts them well out of step with the general public (and yes, I know you won't admit that).

If you really want to move past the Left/Right nonsense, then start by not writing people off just because they care about something you don’t. People can be concerned about Palestine and also want better housing and healthcare here at home. Believe it or not, it is possible to care about more than one thing at a time

I don't write anyone off for caring about stuff that I don't care about (and for the record, I care about the people of Gaza, I just care about the people I can see out my window more).

My problem with SF, PBP etc. is not that they don't care about the homeless or the beleaguered renters of Ireland at all, it's that they care about them an awful lot less than they care about hamas, or some mercedes-driving Ukrainian, or any random drag queen, rapper, or tiktok-friendly cause-du-jour than they do about the great Irish unwashed. That's not my opinion, that's how it appears from their actions.

You and I probably aren't that far apart on what matters to us - it's simply that I don't see the Irish "left" as anything more than a bunch of spoofers, who will do nothing meaningful for the poor and argainlised. Will the right? Probably not, but they haven't had the opportunity yet, unlike the left, so we can only speculate.