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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed

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Comments

  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    You're putting words in my mouth! I don't believe it is any of those three!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,543 ✭✭✭chooseusername


      In 1999 he said it was on 23rd “either late morning or early afternoon".

    In another statement in 2000 he said "it must have been between 11 and 11:30"

    The Gardaí probably had to "keep going back, maybe 10 times to get what they wanted"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 745 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    It's all just he said/she said, every single piece of evidence (against Bailey at least).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,150 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    It’s great how’s there’s a few people still on this thread who can retrieve the essential information required to counter absolute gobbleygook nonsense and fictional claims as fact.

    Cheers 👍



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    …and yet some would still unquestioningly accept that as clear evidence of guilt! 🙄



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Mal-Adjusted


    Bailey really does make the perfect culprit. A horrible, drunk, violent ogre of a man. It's a shame there isn't a single scrap of evidence against him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭tibruit


    No. I`m putting evidence to you. It`s that stuff that you maintain doesn`t exist.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Stop lying! You asserted that I thought it was your #3 which is completely untrue and without any foundation.

    My point all along has been that there is no evidence of note against Bailey that stands up to any level of scrutiny. Your recent claim about Ó Colmáin's statement (years after the event) can easily be shown to be inaccurate had you bothered to research it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭tibruit


    The fact that he refined the time a year later is of no consequence. It may be as a result of him having given more thought to what exactly he did on the day in question which could have led to him ruling out the initial possibility that it was early afternoon which in itself doesn`t absolve Bailey from his timeline problem anyway.

    You reproduce a quote that you attribute to nobody in your final line so I won`t comment on it other than it just indicates what you think but would rather not say yourself outright.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,150 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    “The fact that he refined the time a year later is of no consequence.”


    😀😀😀- I reckon Bailey, Baileys solicitor, the DPP and the jury had an Irish trial took place, might just disagree with that statement



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "of note"..Ah. So there is evidence then. You`ve changed your tune so.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Pardon?

    What evidence is there against him aside from circumstantial nonsense that could apply to anyone?
    Or maybe you mean that he had some scratches (which were so important that the gardai got some crayons to draw them).
    You seem on a crusade to pin something on me - grow up FFS



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭tibruit


    There`s nothing inaccurate about either statement. The later one gives a more precise time window and you don`t know why. Nor do I. You automatically presume that he was bending to the will of Garda pressure. Option 3.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    You lied about me and what I think.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭tibruit


    Bailey and his solicitor no doubt. The DPP with all the water gone under the bridge would hopefully reconsider. The vast majority of jury members are not conspiracy theorists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭tibruit


    Why don`t you deal with the issues being discussed and stop personalizing it.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    What you now describe as your #3 is jotnrhe same as your earlier #3 - why are you changing your claims?

    3. He was a conspirator who was happily prepared to invent a narrative in cahoots with bent cops to incriminate an innocent man with murder.

    I'm done dealing with your disingenuous approach!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭tibruit


    I`m currently replying to three different posters which is par for the course for anyone who comes onto this thread arguing that Bailey is guilty, as Peter Flint found out recently. Why you think I`m singling you out is beyond me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭nc6000


    Maybe there isn't any evidence against him because he wasn't involved in the murder?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,064 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    When someone doubtful of their recollections meets police trying to fit together a narrative about a particular suspect... what emerges is not likely an accurate version of what happened. Especially when timeframes are being narrowed years after the fact.

    And what a trivial and irrelevent piece of information it is, it is so far removed from real evidence it shows how desperate you are trying to put together a case v Bailey.

    No conspiracy theory needed. Witnesses recollections are imperfect, especially with the passage of time and / or events of unimportance at the time.

    Police forces finger the wrong suspects.

    Miscarriages of justice happen.

    And in this case we have clear evidence of Garda malpractice, a key witness withdrawing statements the Guards relied on.

    Pure bad faith argument when someone has to misrepresent a position with a list of only 3 bullet points as the only possible options.

    Proof their argument doesnt stand up to scrutiny and they know it, so have to play disingenuous games.

    Post edited by odyssey06 on

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Mal-Adjusted


    Yeah, that's kind of my point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,150 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    It appears some people have learned nothing since the Birmingham 6 were wrongfully convicted on evidence that a 13 year old would find hard to stand over in 2025



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 745 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    If you stack up all the statements and people on one side vs the other you just have a he said/she said. It comes down to a jury trying to decide who to believe. Witness statements are notoriously unreliable, and that's all we have. When you see how difficult it is to convict other he said/she said cases (assault, rape etc.), and the clear mis-steps the gardai made it is clear and obvious why the case was not pursued. A lot of the time the gardai don't pursue those either.

    We're all fairly well informed on here, and there is a wide disparity of opinions, this is similar to a how jury would likely be composed, and ultimately they would likely be unable to form a consensus imo, i.e. not guilty. Still doesn't mean he didn't do it all the same.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    Regarding this whole question of witness evidence and memories recalled long after: there's no point whatever in a ding-dong of opinions about he said/she said and yes-you-did/no-I-didn't etc etc

    A close member of my family was involved for many years in the investigation of serious accidents. The sort of large transport accidents that can lead to criminal prosecution in some cases. But where the main focus of the investigation is on establishing exactly what happened, what was the cause of it, and what steps should be taken to prevent a recurrence.

    One of their key rules was to segregate the witnesses from each other and have them interviewed within twelve hours - or a day at most, if at all possible, - assuming they weren't in hospital, in a coma etc.

    They took statements before the persons concerned had a chance to compare their stories; not ONLY to avoid them making up a story to cover their own tracks (if they had done something they shouldn't) but because, even by comparing notes on what they saw, people tend to "converge" their memories. By three days later, significant clarity of recall has been lost (quoting an insurance investigator, very hard-nosed person indeed)

    With this in mind, I am inclined to be highly sceptical of witnesses who come forward years later with a memory of some detail at a crime scene; a detail that must surely have been much more vivid at the time of the events in question. Yes, people have reasons for staying quiet, and so on, but still….they could have said this at the time when the crime was a hot issue, but they didn't!

    So, scepticism is called for. Not calling anyone a liar, but the very first accounts given AT THE TIME, are likely to be the truest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,381 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Let those who believe that Bailey is guilty in their believes. This opinion is most likely motivated by Bailey's personality and Bailey's previous brushes with the law as well as he's British, not Irish.

    There is no evidence at all against anybody.

    There isn't even new evidence ever since the cold case gotten opened.

    The trip by the Garda to Paris didn't bring any news, we don't even have a name, just that it was somebody in Daniel's circles.

    The clothes sent to the FBI in the US didn't bring any new DNA evidence either.

    Any sightings, overheard conversation of anybody, verbal statements, beatings, excessive alcohol consumptions or introductions to somebody nearly 30 years back can be true or not. They certainly don't prove murder.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Still doesn't mean he didn't do it all the same.

    As I and others here have always said that there is a possibility that he was involved but based on the evidence we're aware of, there's as much evidence linking me to the murder as there is linking Bailey to it!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    I took the liberty of doing a bit of internet searching on this topic, the fallibility of memory: and this extract is from an article published by https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles

    "The impact of recall timing on the preservation of eyewitness memory"

    quote follows:

    ……Participants watched a crime video and then either completed the SAI© or did not engage in an immediate recall attempt. Participants then completed a final recall questionnaire after a delay of 24 h, 1 week, 2 weeks, or 1 month. The results indicated that initial recall should be completed within 24 h of an incident and that under these conditions, the beneficial impact of early recall on long-term memory endures for at least 1 month.

    Keywords: delay, eyewitness memory, eyewitness testimony, guided recall, self-administered interview

    Within the judicial system, eyewitness evidence can be critical to an investigation. However, the quality of such evidence is impacted by the fallibility of memory, which is known to fade rapidly over time (Ebbinghaus, 1913; Murre & Dros, 2015). Furthermore, the longer the delay between the crime and recall, the more likely it is that a witness will encounter misinformation about the event (e.g., through the media) (Paz-Alonso & Goodman, 2008). Several decades of research has demonstrated that when witnesses encounter misinformation after an event, they often incorporate it into their memory, a phenomenon known as the misinformation effect (see Loftus, 2019, for review). As a witness’ memory of the event fades, they become increasingly susceptible to the misinformation effect, as they are less likely to notice the discrepancy between their original memory and any inaccurate post-event information (PEI) they encounter (Paz-Alonso & Goodman, 2008). Therefore, it is important for law enforcement officers to interview witnesses as soon as possible after a critical incident, when their memory is most robust and less likely to have been impacted by exposure to PEI. However, police officers report that this often is not feasible due to limited resources (Wright & Holliday, 2005). When police arrive at a crime scene, they need to secure the area, ensure the safety of everybody present, and perhaps pursue the perpetrator. Therefore, witness interviews are often delayed, sometimes for many weeks (Brown et al., 2008).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 745 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    I think the key difference on here is that those of us who don't believe he did it, are still open to the possibility that he did do it, even if they believe that it is highly improbable. I just never see the people on here, who say that Bailey did it, being open to the high probability that he would have had a mistrial or been found not guilty, or secondly having any discussion on the remote possibility of it being one of the other suspects.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "And what a trivial and irrelevant piece of information it is…"

    Sure it only confirms that Bailey knew there was a woman found dead in suspicious circumstances locally, over two hours before he was first told that there was a woman found dead in suspicious circumstances locally.

    "No conspiracy theory needed"

    Your whole first paragraph, which sets out how you believe it all went down, is the epitome of a conspiracy.

    "a list of only 3 bullet points as the only possible options."

    I gave a very specific reply to a very specific question.. i.e. why the witness waited three years to make a statement.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "We`re all fairly well informed on here"

    Are we? I`m sure you`re right.

    "and there is a wide disparity of opinions"

    No there isn`t. The prevailing opinion on this thread requires a conspiracy of multiple witnesses and gardaí.

    "this is similar to how a jury would likely be composed"

    No it isn`t. A little conclave of like minds has formed here and there is a specific reason why. This thread is not a microcosm at all. Not even close.



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