Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
If we do not hit our goal we will be forced to close the site.

Current status: https://keepboardsalive.com/

Annual subs are best for most impact. If you are still undecided on going Ad Free - you can also donate using the Paypal Donate option. All contribution helps. Thank you.

Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed

1373374376378379407

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,076 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Who do you think would sign up to be available 24/7 to be sent anywhere in the country at short notice?
    From the limited pool of people with the years of experience capable of carrying out the job?

    It's not sustainable and would be a recipe for burn out and resignation.

    The failing is with the State initially for having no provision for alternates and with the Guards on the scene who refused Harbison's request.

    I believe there is no provision such that a repeat of the Harbison scenario would not occur, but I don't think anyone has ever been properly held to account for the decisions around moving of the body. We don't do accountability in this country really.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭head82


    I'm not saying he should have "no time off duty, at all"

    I'm saying due to the relatively low occurrence of murder scenarios in Ireland and the importance of his position, he should have been available for when those rare events did occur.

    If it was your loved one lying dead in a ditch would you be as understanding of the amount of time it took to respond to the scene because the one person required to finalize everything was unavailable as a result of a birthday party!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 971 ✭✭✭csirl


    As far as I can recall, Harbison wasnt employed as a full time pathologist. He worked in academia and voluteered* for the role.

    *when I mean volunteered, I think he responded to a request for someone to do the role on an occasional basis (rather than for no pay).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 7,470 ✭✭✭Allinall


    That is exactly what you are saying.

    Nobody should be on call 24/7/365. That's a ridiculous suggestion.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,817 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    You are blaming the State Pathologist's office for not being able to drop everything going on and dealing with a murder (which obviously is at short notice) at the other end of the country but ignoring the fact that the government happily allowed that office to become pretty much overworked and also ignoring my earlier point that Harbison told the gardai to move the body to CUH where it could be placed in appropriate storage. The gardai made the decision to ignore that request and left Sophie's remains lie there for an extra day which must have affected the quantity and quality of any forensic evidence.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭head82


    We're not talking about an IT expert here. Someone you'd call out when your computer or server fails to function as expected. We're talking about a real life human being who had to spend their last moments callously left to decompose at the side of the road due to bureaucratic inefficiency.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,817 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    She wasn't left there due to bureaucratic inefficiency. Harbison could not make it down (and the country made a financial decision not to recruit assistants) so Harbison requested that her body be moved. It was not bureaucracy behind their decision not to move her - it was a misguided attempt to preserve the crime scene.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,018 ✭✭✭Deeec


    So you are saying Harbison should have been on call 24/7. That's means no holidays, attending parties etc because that's what on call means - always available. Do you realise what an unreasonable ask that is to put on someone.

    You also seem to think he should have attended the scene after drinking while celebrating his birthday?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭head82


    Yes, I am "blaming the State Pathologist's office for not being able to drop everything going on and dealing with a murder". I would have expected a murder to take precedence. However, the State Pathologist's office at the time pretty much consisted of only Harbison as a 'boots on the ground' employee.

    I have also acknowledged the failings of the State in providing assistants to the one State pathologist and I've not ignored your point on the refusal of the local Gardai in responding accordingly with Harbisons request and whoever did needs to answer for that decision.

    I've noticed over time a lot of defense of Harbison. As if his decisions were justified, perhaps they were and I'm just uninformed. Has he been used as a 'scapegoat'.. am i missing something?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 156 ✭✭Annascaul


    I am not fully aware of every minute detail of this case however it does get international attention.

    There are basically two things which stand out, and are fundamentally different to what would have happened in other countries in similar circumstances.

    1)The whole police systematic malpractice in Ireland, corruption, coercion, disappearance of key evidence, and endless focus on Bailey even though they didn't have more on him than on others is more than out of the ordinary.

    2)The whole "French connection", husband benefiting financially the most without a doubt and avoiding a divorce cost as well as getting some life insurance out on Sophie and a French court handing out a sentence under strange circumstance obviously doing an influential French family a favor.

    If the murder case had an "Irish end", the Irish police would have been involved even worse it was a police officer. Naturally the police would never admit that one.

    If the case had a "French end", Sophie's husband was involved and / or he sent somebody. Sophie's son would find that one very hard to accept.

    "Neutrally speculated" it could only have been either one of those two options. These two options do stand out by more than a mile, they are almost obvious, even in plain sight.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    A couple of links to his workload and the debacle that was state pathology dept at the time,

    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/john-harbison-obituary-the-irish-state-s-first-forensic-state-pathologist-1.4451578

    https://archive.ph/alqyq

    We, at least I, don't know at what time Dr Harbison was aware the body was not going to transferred to Cork, it may well have been too late in the day to make the journey to Dreenane. Even if he was informed of the murder at noon and he decided to make the journey then, it would have been pitch dark by the time he got there. (The forensics team from Dublin didn't get to Toormore until 10pm.) So the body would have been out in the open for at least 12 hours, and it would have made no difference in determining the time of death.

    The other thing is, If the Gardaí had followed his instructions and transferred the body to Cork and he arrived in Cork and did the post mortem as he had planned, there would be none of this furore going on for the last 30 years.

    Post edited by chooseusername on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 168 ✭✭Baz Richardson


    So he never has a holiday? He can't have a good time and get drunk? You haven't thought that through.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭head82


    "So he never has a holiday? He can't have a good time and get drunk? You haven't thought that through."

    I'll just leave that above comment hanging there as I don't know how to respond to it.

    Wait!! I've just thought of something. As my great uncle Ben once said.. "With great power comes great responsibility". (Apologies for the facetiousness but I think it was apt in this instance).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    " We're talking about a real life human being who had to spend their last moments callously left to decompose at the side of the road due to bureaucratic inefficiency."

    It wasn't Dr Harbison's decision to leave her out in the open, but nice hyperbolix in fairness



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭head82


    I've never suggested it was his decision to leave her body in the open. However, it was his inability/unwillingness to respond to the crime scene when requested that resulted in the unnecessary lengthy exposure to the elements. He may have called for her body to be removed to a secure enclosure.. Cork University Hospital.. but for some unknown reason, that request was ignored.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,817 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Right, you've been informed so now drop it! 🙄



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    I posted the incorrect link above, it should have been

    https://archive.ph/alqyq



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 207 ✭✭redoctober


    Sorry if this is obvious: What do you mean by "Irish end" and "French end"?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 156 ✭✭Annascaul


    OK, I am by far no expert on this, but as far as I have been reading there isn't much evidence in this case.

    There are only two certainties: The police had apparently motive to actively pervert the course of the investigation, and Sophie's husband gotten and saved a lot of money due to Sophie's death.

    These are simply facts in the case from what I've been reading about this and they are too hard to ignore or explain away as "just accidents".

    For instance, since when is it acceptable for a police force to give drugs to a former British soldier to get close to Bailey to get him to speak or confess? Since when is it acceptable for a police force to coerce a witness ? These things didn't happen by accident or lack of experience, they happened obviously by design.

    So the police used drugs and coercion to get somewhere, or at least they thought so. Only criminals use drugs and coercion ! - and this was not in a dictatorship or some other autocracy but in an EU country. ( In any other EU country any police officer acting or behaving this way would have lost his job, even his pension )

    Or the husband of Sophie in France. We do know that he was already having a relationship with his next future wife to be, whom he married shortly after the murder, - pregnancy came soon after. He also received a life insurance payout upon Sophie's death and there was no cost of a divorce for him, one which might have also dragged on in legal issues as well. Also since when would a court in an EU country convict for murder on just hearsay evidence and withdrawn witness statements upon coercion?

    So for Daniel Toscan du Plantier, the wife he obviously no longer loved was conveniently gone, didn't even bother traveling to Ireland, avoided police questioning, he conveniently received a life insurance payout, even the cottage must have been in his ownership as well and nobody notices anything? His finances were also never looked at.

    It's not an uncommon motive at all for a husband killing his wife or having her killed for, wealth, money and the cost of divorce.

    What does stand out here and is even stinking to high heaven by the little information I have and the reading I have done is that both the police in Ireland as well as the courts in France had clear intention to deliberately pervert this murder case into another direction, and they both found a man as a scapegoat not even having evidence.

    I'd say it's all a bit too obvious. The answers either are to be found with the Irish police or with Sophie's apparently influential husband.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 207 ✭✭redoctober


    Okay. I get what you're saying now. It's possible that something sinister was going on with the guards, i.e. a cover-up. My instinct would be that it was more a case of fitting up Bailey as he was a suitable scapegoat and they were under pressure to deliver something as they had cocked up the investigation. Incompetence seemed to be rife.

    On the French end, they should have at least interviewed and investigated the husband since this is basic but apparently the guards were blocked from doing so. Ridiculous really.

    My own personal view is that it was someone like the guy who took his life shortly after. The attack just seems like an irrational act. There was no reason for anyone to have such animosity against Sophie in Ireland. She was hardly ever here and this time had just arrived and happened to be alone unfortunately. As for a hitman; it's possible, but I think it would be more likely that Sophie would have just disappeared and would have been another missing person case.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 156 ✭✭Annascaul


    I am not in Ireland, nor am I Irish. I've only been reading about the case.

    What is however very very obvious to me, is that both at an Irish end, and at a French end, there is a strong effort which was made to pervert the course of the investigation and justice in order to implicate a man against whom there is no evidence.

    I've read lot's of negative things about the Bandon as well as the Bantry police station, same as about Daniel Toscan du Plantier and the French judicial system.

    The only thing I see with certainty and beyond dispute is a corrupt and coercive police force on the Irish end, and on the French end an influential business man with lot's of money to gain or to lose, a marriage which is over, and a questionable court decision.

    This all looks like big motive from all sides: A failed marriage, a wife no longer loved, a costly divorce, a life insurance, a cottage, a corrupt police force and a woman alone and an unwelcome or unpleasant Englishman as the perfect suspect to be framed.

    It would seem very much both Sophie and Mr. Bailey were all victim in this game, one gotten killed, one gotten framed.

    And the other ones would be laughing: Police officers in Ireland keeping their job, going after the corruption, not losing job or pension, and a Frenchman, getting married to wife number 3, a life insurance payout and a cottage in Ireland.

    No job losses, no disciplinary procedures, no questions or inquiries into personal finances, nothing.

    You may certainly correct me, but this is what simply stands out in this case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 168 ✭✭Baz Richardson


    Seriously? You don't understand the point that some people like to have a good time and get drunk and they would not be able to under your bizarre rule? What's the issue there then?

    Are you going to address the point that people would not be able to live their lives? What about his holiday then? You expect him never to have a couple of weeks abroad?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,076 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Not just having a drink. He could have a health issue, a family crisis, a holiday abroad.

    The whole setup was simply inadequate for an EC/EU country in the 1990s. We were not that badly off. Nothing done about an obvious issue until the horse had bolted.

    And I believe it was a factor in putting pressure on the investigation to 'get a result'.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    One of the most extraordinary issues regarding this case was a part time photographer from Skibbereen, Patrick Lowney, who came forward in 2000.

    He was visited by a man who wanted him to develop a roll of film (no camera phones in 2000). He believed that the man would leave the film with him and return for the photos later on but this person wanted them developed immediately and in his company. Lowney was asked "How long will this take?" and replied with "seven minutes and time for the photos to dry".

    So he went to his dark room to carry out the work. There were 36 images with the last 20 to 25 showing a woman lying on the ground.

    In his own words Lowney states "The area around the body was a laneway, stones and grass in the middle of the road, grass verge, and briars. One thing I did notice was that there was a strange shaped stone somewhere between the woman's left elbow and wrist."

    A farmyard gate was also identified and "you could see the shoes of the photographer".

    The customer began to become seriously agitated and grabbed the still wet prints and film before speedily leaving.

    Lowney was shown a selection of twelve photographs of different men by AGS - the photograph of the man he selected was that of Ian Bailey. He was then brought to the crime scene (three and a half years later) and identified the scene as the same scene in the images he was asked to develop.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭head82


    As I've previously acknowledged, it was a bureaucratic failing.. State Pathologists Office in not providing sufficient assistants (for whatever reason, funding or lack of qualified personnel which I understand Harbison battled for).. that contributed to the embarrassing delayed response to a major crime scene.
    Having said that, if there has to be only one qualified person for such an important and well recompensed position, typical time off work entitlements cannot be expected to apply. The very nature of the job does not allow for it.
    Short off being unavailable due to an illness, injury or personal family issue etc., celebrating a birthday is at the very least a questionable excuse!


    I would hate to be that individual to have to explain to the family of a murder victim the reason for the body left exposed to the elements for more than a day was due to the States one and only pathologist could not attend because the crime occurred on the day of his birthday!
    (Harbisons ignored request for the body to be removed to CUH is another failing to add to the already long list).



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,817 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Oh, you're back 🙄
    I'll just refer you to Phil Mathers reply here: Bizarre Witness Statement : r/MurderAtTheCottage

    Patrick Lowney's story is another one of those things that seems damning at first but then becomes very murky and tends to falls apart under close inspection. He was never called to the Libel trial in 2003 nor the High Court action in 2015. He died over a year before the trial in Paris in 2019. The French sent a subpoena to him without bothering to call and check was he even alive. His witness statements were read out in Paris. He said he developed negatives of a woman lying on the ground in a lane next to a gate. (The full details are listed in news articles from 2019) However he never mentioned anything about blood or injuries, which would have been by far the most obvious feature of photos taken close up of the body. He also said the woman was clothed in a bright coloured dress. In fact the body was almost naked. Gardai searched the Prairie for the roll of negatives but they were never found.

    But there is another reason why the Gardai never highlighted him. He retracted his statements, saying he never identified Bailey, contrary to his signed statements. When French investigators came to Ireland interview Irish witnesses, Lowney agreed to talk to them but only on condition that the gardai were excluded from the interview. Make of that what you will.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    It is well known that Ian Bailey was going around intimidating witnesses (mainly women). It seems like a pretty odd thing to do to contact the Gardaí, give statements and then retract them all. The body was not almost naked either.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,817 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Can you provide a link to what you are claiming?
    What witnesses did he intimidate?
    What were they witnesses to exactly?
    As it was (apparently) "well known that Ian Bailey was going around intimidating witnesses (mainly women)", exactly what action did AGS take to stop this?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,018 ✭✭✭Deeec


    We don't know if Harbison agreed to those terms do we- as in being ready for work 24/7, 52 weeks per year. That's no time for holidays, social life, family emergencies etc. I cant see anybody agreeing to those terms being honest. I expect Harbison was annoyed with the situation and put his own terms in place that there would be times when he would not be available.

    If you are a reasonable person you would have to accept that to put that pressure on an individual is way too much.

    Im puzzled why you continue to blame Harbison.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    Furthermore on the day of the murder, 23rd December 1996, IB found out from Eddie Cassidy that a murder had occurred in the area at 1.40PM. Cassidy was not told that the female murdered was French.

    Earlier that morning IB made two calls. One was at 11.30AM to Pól Ó Colmáin - someone IB met in the pubs. Ó Colmáin spoke of how IB was expressing his delight that he wishes to return to journalism and that he told Ó Colmáin that there was a murder in area…..some two hours 10 minutes before Cassidy told him for the first time.

    Later "just before noon" [according to IB] he rang Caroline Leftwick to postpone a scheduled meeting as he stated (again) there was amurder in the area and he had the story. This would be approximetely one hour 40 minutes before Cassidy told IB. Leftwick put the phone down and immediaetly told her husband of the murder that IB referred to. Yet how did IB know?



Advertisement