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Presidential Election 2025

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    I never said any such thing but I did say, and I repeat:

    "strident" is the right word for Noeline. It applies to both sexes and it means "expressing views in forceful language that does not try to avoid upsetting other people". That's not how to campaign for the Aras and absolutely not how the President of Ireland should behave.

    You say the President decides how to behave. Are you serious? The President must behave in accordance with his constitutional role.

    The failure of the government to rein in Michael D. is another sign of their hopeless lack of backbone, flip-flopping every which way, watching how the wind blows on housing, health, Gaza/Iran….

    Lots of people who love Michael D. would gag on the word "unconstitutional" while they watch in horror what his successor could do if we elect an outsider. Embracing dictators, honoring bigots, mocking victims, sabotaging our diplomacy…

    It's like you said - the President decides how to behave. And the government will take no action.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,586 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The failure of the government to rein in Michael D. is another sign of their hopeless lack of backbone, flip-flopping every which way, watching how the wind blows. Lots of people who love Michael D. will gag on the word "unconstitutional" while they watch in horror what his successor might do.

    This is just opinion based on likely not liking what he has to say.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,458 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The main reason that the Government couldn't do anything about the utterances from the Aras that they didn't like was that they knew well that public support wouldn't be on their side.

    This wouldn't be the case with the kind of 'outsider' scenario that you're talking about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    yes of course but the government have now lost the ability to rein in a president who exceeds the role.

    Future Presidents will be quick to assert the freedom that Michael D. has been given and an outsider may relish a run-in with the Taoiseach who has wilted before Michael D.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,586 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    There is no constitutional requirement that the President be an 'insider'.

    Only the government by taking a president to task can define what is unconstitutional. If they don't take a President to task what they have done or said is constitutionally fine.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Whoever said the President had to be an insider? Of course, nominations are in the gift of Oireachtas members and County Councils but outsiders have been nominated for every Presidential election since 1997. One of them came within days of being elected.

    Your capacity for constitutional creativity is breathtaking, Francie. This morning you gave Presidents carte blanche to behave as they will. Now you say it's the government which defines what is unconstitutional "when taking the President to task".

    God help us all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,586 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Well it certainly isn't random people on the internet who are tasked with it.

    You say MDH has been unconstitutional.

    He is only only unconstitutional if he is deemed to be by the sitting government.

    He hasn't been deemed unconstitutional.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,399 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,421 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    Waffle. The Supreme Court has the final say on what is and isn't constitutional.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,586 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    And the President’s actions have to be referred to it.

    Has that happened even…..nope. No matter how much the random constitutional experts on the internet say he should have been.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,421 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    Not arguing the above at all. Just you said the govt can decide on constitutionality and its obvious they can't. The Supreme Court has that power. Even governments are capable of acting, or trying to at least, unconstitutionally. And also any interested parties can challenge anything they think unconstitutional, not just govts!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    OK, Francie. I did suggest this morning that you consider our constitutional framework - legislative, executive and judicial. So which branch of government would decide if MDH acted unconstitutionally?

    I never said he had been "deemed unconstitutional". And I have never been convicted of drink driving.

    But I do say MDH has not abided by his constitutional role.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,586 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    If you are being pedantic, yes.

    The SC would do nothing until a case is referred to it.
    The government would have to believe there is a case to answer and decide to do that…they haven’t.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,586 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You consistently infer it is a given he has been unconstitutional.
    Finally you state it just your opinion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,091 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    The constitution has a section about bringing the behaviour of the president under review, and it's pretty broad as to who can do this:

    8     1° The President shall not be answerable to either House of the Oireachtas or to any court for the exercise and performance of the powers and functions of his office or for any act done or purporting to be done by him in the exercise and performance of these powers and functions.

    2° The behaviour of the President may, however, be brought under review in either of the Houses of the Oireachtas for the purposes of section 10 of Article 12 of this Constitution, or by any court, tribunal or body appointed or designated by either of the Houses of the Oireachtas for the investigation of a charge under section 10 of the said Article.

    So it's either the Dáil or Seanad who can review this, or any other body they may have appointed (wonder if they have ever had to state such a list?)

    As it stands though - until the courts rule that something he has done is unconstitutional I'm with @FrancieBrady on this one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    I have stated it clearly, no inference is required. MDH has exceeded his constitutional role.

    Of course there is no specific provision in the Constitution forbidding the President from, say, praising a deceased dictator or writing fawning letters to the Ayatollahs. And people love to hear the Government getting the rough edge of the President's tongue. Constitutions are not like tax laws which spell out all eventualities on the assumption that well-paid advisers will look for loopholes. Constitutions provide a legal framework with checks and balances on the power of each branch of government so that the various institutions will operate together.

    Our President is designed to be a figurehead within our system i.e. the President takes precedence over all others and exercises a wide range of powers and functions but - and here's the kicker - all those powers and functions can only be exercised on the say-so of the Government (with a few very limited exceptions).

    This does not mean the President is redundant. The President is a guarantor of the constitutional order. No Bill becomes law without the President's signature. The President can refer any Bill to the Supreme Court to test its constitutionality. The President appoints the Taoiseach and Ministers after their election by the Dáil. All of this have been done efficiently and without controversy because, despite the disgraceful recent scenes in the Dáil, we have been fortunate not to face the sort of constitutional crisis which destroyed many European democracies at the very time when we were establishing ours with a popularly elected Head of State replacing a foreign monarch.

    All previous Presidents, including the two immediate predecessors who expanded their role as far as they could, understood that they shouldn't criticise the Government or run their own foreign policy. The only Presidential crisis in our history arose when the Minister for Defence criticised President O Dalaigh when speaking to Army Officers. This is the opposite of today's situation but Paddy Hillery spent 14 years in purdah in the Áras to atone for that mess.

    MDH, like Donald Trump, has ridden roughshod over long-established constitutional conventions but almost no one in the Irish media will call Michael D. out although they love nothing better than to print raiméis about Trump and the US Constitution.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,586 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    All previous Presidents, including the two immediate predecessors who expanded their role as far as they could, understood that they shouldn't criticise the Government or run their own foreign policy

    All previous Presidents, including the two immediate predecessors who expanded their role as far as they could, decided not to criticise the government or other governments which was within their rights to do.

    Criticism or human rights pleas are not your own 'foreign policy', they are your opinions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    You think Mary Robinson and Mary McAleese were free to criticise the Government (and foreign Governments) while they were in the Áras. But that nonetheless they decided to keep schtum during their many years in office.

    Contrary to everything they stood for before and after.

    And without a word of explanation for their weird behaviour in office.

    If you believe that, I can't help you, Francie.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,586 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    They decided not to do it. 'Weird behaviour' or not, I simply don't know why they didn't, nor do you.
    What we DO KNOW is that it is possible to do it.
    And so far it has not been deemed to be unconstitutional and those inferring it is are wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,421 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    I'm well aware of the govts role in the actions and rights of the president. But I'm not in agreement with you or Francie on the govts right to declare what is constitutional or not. They must go to the supreme Court if such a thing as a Presidential action or speech is contested to prove it as being unconstitutional.

    Now I'm sure Michael D is well aware of his role and I assume his working of statements he makes take all that into consideration. I'm not saying he is or has done anything unconstitutional. But the govt can only declare their opinion, not a legal ruling on constitutionality.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,091 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    I don't think the government can say what is or isn't constitutional. But if they feel something is then the constitution has a provision for them to do something about it. They haven't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,586 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The government would have to believe he was unconstitutional to refer it to the SC.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,299 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Eh, no, the income protection policy only topped up his disability pension from TCD.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Before SethBrundle jumps on me again, I will bring this back to the forthcoming election. The question now is - will any candidate this year say that MDH exceeded his constitutional role?

    I would be amazed if any potential candidate has the gumption to stand up for the constitutional position at the price of alienating MDH supporters and promising, if elected, to restrict themselves to the constitutional role.

    Even worse, I doubt if anyone nominating a candidate will insist that they promise to stick to the constitutional role. If, for the first time, we elect someone who says that as President they will be free to criticise the Government and to operate their own foreign policy, we will have chaos in our foreign relations and the makings of a constitutional crisis at home.

    Mod: warning for discussing moderation in the thread.

    Post edited by Seth Brundle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,586 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You only have a constitutional 'crisis' if the constitution is unable to resolve a situation.

    As nobody has even tested the constitution on the basis of your opinion we are quite a long way off 'crisis'. Those crying 'crisis' are therefore sensationalising and scaremongering about something the government and not least, the electorate, are comfortable with, even if some are occasionally ruffled about it IMO
    If the government believe this or a future president has been unconstitutional then I see no reason why the constitution will not be fit to deal with that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    "The question now is - will any candidate this year say that MDH exceeded his constitutional role?"

    Jebus wept. Enough. We have had pages of this incredibly boring off topic clap trap. Will it ever stop? Or would yourself and Francie ever go and get a room and let his thread drift back on topic for those of us that are actually interested in something other than your two totally uninteresting voices.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,586 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Nothing stopping you making your more interesting points.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Which I have attempted to do. They get totally lost in the irrelevant and boring noise that the two of you are generating non stop. Anyway I'll leave it at that, I know better than to waste time getting drawn in by you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,586 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I didn't know the answer to your last post on 'Gemma'.

    Sorry.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    As always, Francie, read what I wrote. I never said we have a constitutional crisis. I said and now repeat for your benefit-

    If, for the first time, we elect someone who says that as President they will be free to criticise the Government and to operate their own foreign policy, we will have chaos in our foreign relations and the makings of a constitutional crisis at home.

    To those who think this is a non-issue, I say - try to keep up. I am only spelling out what people in Government were saying privately and what they in exasperation are now saying publicly. Here's what FF's preferred Presidential candidate wrote in this week's Sindo to explain why he is not running. It's exactly what I'm saying here but couched in, well, Presidential language.

    Firstly, in my view, the successful candidate should understand the delicate constitutional parameters and balance that are required. Overreach in executive powers should be no more tolerated than in the reverse. President Michael D Higgins would, I am sure, not tolerate any undermining of his exclusive competences by a government minister, and correctly so.

    he has been afforded arguably a large degree of latitude by the elected governments of the day, who have taken a flexible approach to his criticism of government policy.

    His approach might be popular at times, and some of his pointed statements I would personally agree with, but the question remains whether such statements should come from that office?

    Such an approach might become problematic, in hindsight, if a president of a more extreme stripe is elected.

    Do you think it's mere coincidence that the next day MDH proclaimed that he would not be silenced?

    Hiberncis considers this to be "irrelevant and boring noise" because he has nothing to offer. Others may think I'm a troll from the FF Press Office. But I've made my points and I'll leave others to figure it out for themselves.

    https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/barry-andrews-what-we-need-from-the-next-president-and-why-i-wont-be-running-for-the-aras/a1075292156.html

    https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2025/06/15/president-higgins-has-no-intention-of-remaining-silent-while-democracy-under-threat/



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