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Grant of Arms

  • 23-06-2025 11:28AM
    #1
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,854 ✭✭✭


    I am trying to trace a link between suspected relations.

    An application was made for a grant of arms in the 1950. It reads something like I A, son of B, Grand son of C and great-grandson of D apply for a grant of Arms.

    the Chief Herald then says having enquired into the circumstances grant to arms to the descendants of D. I am trying to connect a person I believe is a daughter of D with him. She would I suspect be C's sister.

    Apart from the declarations shown in the folio on the grant, is there other materials in the possession of tyhe Chief Herald which would give more information on D?



Comments

  • #2
    Mick Tator
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 772 ✭✭✭Mick Tator


    Looking at that I’d guess you’re back to the first half of the 1800s?

    The Chief Herald in the 1950s was Edward MacLysaght and his office (CHO) would have been given supporting documentation to show the direct line link between A and D. I’d be surprised if C’s other siblings would be mentioned in it, but it’s a possibility. The CHO should have checked the veracity of the claimed descent before granting the Arms to the applicant. (In my personal experience that was not a thorough exercise after MacL retired.) Does the grant give addresses e.g. A. Ancestorname of Xtown? If so it’s a good clue for searching baptismal records of siblings. There also might be a file on the family name/branch in the Genealogical Office ‘Loose Mss’ archive. Sadly, the CHO website now states it is no longer accepting applications for Grants (since Jan 2025) and

    “All queries pertaining to the Genealogical Office Manuscript (GO MS) Collection should please be directed to mqueries@nli.ie.  Queries relating to family history should be directed to genealogy@nli.ie.”

    In the past the Loose Mss files could be viewed (I think you now have to order them in advance?) Given all that it looks like you need to visit the NLI having first set up what you want.

    Let us know how you get on



  • #3
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,854 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    I am referring to an application made in approved in the latter half of the 20th century. I have found a baptismal record for a person I believe is C but it doesn't identify the parents and it seems there was one sponsor for a number of children baptised on the same day. There is a baptismal record in the same church 3 years earlier which refers to a person with the same name as D as the father. I am of the view that D is the father based on some other co-incidences within the family.



  • #4
    Mick Tator
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 772 ✭✭✭Mick Tator


    Yes, it was clear that the application was made in the 1950s by A, which is why I mentioned E MacL the Chief Herald. He was stricter than some of his successors, so the records from then would be more comprehensive.

    What you write does not make any answer straightforward. It is highly unusual for baptisms to be registered without any parental names; AFAIK parents’ names and sponsors are a requirement of Canon Law. Illegitimate births were so described , gave the mother’s name (sometimes with that of the father if they were cohabiting) otherwise they had a dash for the father’s name. Very rarely there could be a comment ‘father reputed to be X’. To have a single sponsor for a ‘number of children’ is equally unusual (it sounds like a foundling institution).

    Just because the name ‘D’ appears in the register 3 years earlier doesn’t signify much, and certainly nowhere near enough to jump to a conclusion that he is C’s father. Additionally, as you have not said what the ‘some other co-incidences’ are, it is impossible to accept your premise.



  • #5
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,854 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    I am not asking you to accept anything. At the moment there is a working hypothesis. I have looked at the NLI mircrfilm. The spaces are showing blank for Cs parents. Why, I don't know. It may be fading or a spill.

    My main query is whether the documents considered by the Chief Herald but not referred to in the grant of arms or shown on the NLI file can be viewed. They might for example show the name of the wife of D, which might or might not match the name on the daughters baptismal cert.



  • #6
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,795 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    You'll need a good dive into the catalogue and to speculatively order records for viewing in there to find your answer, I suspect.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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