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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,550 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Sophie's family not happy with Jim Sheridan's new film.

    To be expected I suppose, as it appears it shows the case against Bailey as flawed.

    OOPS, already posted by @Seth Brundle

    Here's the paywalled article;

    https://archive.ph/z6i0m

    Post edited by chooseusername on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,458 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    'I wasn't trying to upset her family'...

    Uh, ok, did he think they would be happy about it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 168 ✭✭Baz Richardson


    The family will be upset at anything that challenges their view.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,400 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Sophie's family, especially Pierre-Louis Baudey, seem to be obsessed by the idea that it was Bailey and only Bailey could have done it. They claim that "every evidence points to Bailey" and that the French judiciary did a very good job. I do understand that they are upset and even more so, that the murder hasn't been solved as well as the Irish police who botched up the investigation, but there is no evidence pointing to Bailey at all to have him convicted.

    I also think the problem with Sophie's family is that some of them seemed to have had lot's of money and influence and the French judiciary tried to do them a favour. No other court in the EU or the UK would have convicted somebody for murder without any real evidence and the statement of a coerced witness.

    I am often wondering if the French police would have had better results? Would they have found DNA evidence? Fingerprints? etc…. to link killer to victim?

    Even with a very experienced police force the case would have been hard to crack.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 168 ✭✭Baz Richardson


    Since it is likely that Re-creation will be attacking the circumstantial evidence that some believe to be enough to convict, it may be appropriate at this time to drop in an example of how unsafe such evidence can be.

    Peter Sullivan served 38 years for murder after being sentenced to life with a minimum term of 16 years.

    He initially denied the attack, signed a confession (allegedly after being assaulted by police) and was convicted on the basis of this retracted admission, evidence around his whereabouts, and a since discredited bite mark matching his teeth.

    Eyewitnesses said they saw him where clothing and a handbag belonging to the victim were found burned after her death. These eyewitnesses failed to identify him in an identity parade.

    A neighbour said that Sullivan had borrowed a crowbar before the murder, police believed it could have been the weapon.

    He supposedly bragged about the killing to another inmate while on remand, how convenient for the police eh?

    They certainly wanted him to be guilty…however recent advances in testing revealed that Sullivan's DNA was not in the semen samples taken at the time, and are of an unknown DNA profile.

    He was release after spending 38 years protesting his innocence.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 199 ✭✭Mannesmann


    I wonder how long more it will take until the review is completed?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,400 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I'd say by now they must have found DNA on Sophie's clothes at the FBI if there was any DNA at all to be found. Reason there is no news is there is probably nothing conclusive found, or someobody's DNA was found who is or was among Daniel's friends. The latter would be a bit of a hard hit for Pierre-Louis Baudey to digest because it would be proove that his father sent someobody from France to kill his mother. I'd also say, if they found Bailey's DNA or Alfie's or Finbarr's, we'd have known it by now.

    Personally it's my good guess and chances are high that no DNA was found upon the FBI examination.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,528 ✭✭✭robwen


    1000005924.jpg 1000005923.jpg

    Not looking good for the cold case investigation



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 168 ✭✭Baz Richardson


    Guards still focussed on Bailey, does that surprise anybody here? No, thought not…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,435 ✭✭✭nc6000


    So the Gardai don't know how to contact The Guardian or ITV? Can they not use Google like I did?

    https://www.theguardian.com/tips

    https://www.itv.com/news/2012-03-04/contact-us



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 168 ✭✭Baz Richardson


    They were probably looking in the wrong place…again. 🤡



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,550 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Reminds me of this, probably been on here before, but anyway:

    “A policeman sees a drunk man searching for something under a streetlight and asks what the drunk has lost. He says he lost his keys and they both look under the streetlight together. After a few minutes the policeman asks if he is sure he lost them here, and the drunk replies, no, and that he lost them in the park. The policeman asks why he is searching here, and the drunk replies, "this is where the light is".”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    "no evidence pointing to Bailey at all to have him convicted"

    GTF outta here. . . . You people wouldn't have convicted OJ Simpson ffs.

    Bailey is as guilty as sin and, literally, got away with murder.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    On what specific evidence have you deduced that opinion?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    It's an opinion that's as plausible as any other surrounding this case, more plausible than opining that Bailey is definitely not the killer. The available facts and evidence, whilst not directly incriminating of him, would lend weight to the former opinion rather than the latter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 168 ✭✭Baz Richardson




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 168 ✭✭Baz Richardson




  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    But I don't think anyone on here has posted that an opinion that "Bailey is definitely not the killer". However, there is absolutely no evidence at this time to support a claim that he definitley is the killer, any more than there is evidence to say that I am the killer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    He left the bed he normally slept in and his house early in the morning just an hour or so before Sophie was murdered. The next day he was the first on the scene when informed that a murder had occurred. A scene so remote (no one knew where it was) that it was possible he was turning up to contaminate the scene before Harbison arrived.

    He had cuts and bruises all over him and put it down to cutting down Xmas trees. When it was put to him by journalist Senan Molony that no one buys a Xmas tree on Xmas Eve he then changed his story to say he was killing a turkey instead.

    The clothes he wore on the night of the murder "accidentally" ended up on fire the following day.

    The man had a serious history of violence towards women - especially his partner Jules.

    He had no alibi for the time of Sophie's murder.

    In the end he got away with it because AGS were incompetent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,145 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    Sometimes I think the simplest explanation is that he went up to Alfie Lyons house to drink or party and got into an argument or altercation with STDP near her house or maybe the gate behind her house leading to the Lyons house.

    He had a history of violence against women so assaulted her and went too far.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,400 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    If he did it, it would be the most likely explanation.

    I don't know how close he really was with Alfie? He may only have done some manual work for him every now and then. Also, why would he hike for one hour to Alfie's for just a couple of drinks, whilst he already had many before in the pub?

    I see this the same way. There is absolutely no evidence.

    The main issue I see is that there is no real long term connection between Sophie and Bailey as she was only for a very very short time in any given year at her cottage in Ireland.

    It's far more likely the murderer was somebody who had some kind of longer connection to Sophie which at some point turned to a stronger difference of opinion which would have lead to a strong motive.

    Remember, in the vast majority of murder cases murderer and victim are in some kind of relationship or connection to each other.

    Other than a lust for beating up women when drunk, I don't see any motive for Bailey at all. He was also only known to have beaten up his partner Jules, never other women in the area.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,085 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    None of that is direct evidence of murder. All of it is questionable and debatable either in point of fact or relevance.

    And you're making statements of fact about him being first on the scene and contaminating it - backed up by absolutely nothing.

    There were local Guards on the scene well before Harbinson, and well before those same Guards record Bailey at the scene. Those same Guards report Bailey as being outside the cordon.

    It has been well established and accepted in the DPP report that he did in fact cut down a christmas tree and killed a turkey.

    And if he got the cuts at the scene, why was no forensic evidence found linking him to it? Not even contaminated evidence - absolutely nothing. So on the one hand, you allude to contamination, on the other hand, nothing at all was found.

    How many other people in the area had a history of violence and no real alibi? Were they all guilty of murder too?

    Textbook example of a recipe for a miscarriage for justice.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,550 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    I read your post last night, and came on to say save your popcorn, that no one is going to respond to these posts anymore.

    But I see now they've hooked two already.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    Bailey was the first civilian on the scene. He supposedly didn't have a clue where the crime occurred but arrived there shortly after being told.

    Well established in the DPP report that Bailey cut down a Xmas tree on 24th December? Even Bailey himself changed his story when his own stupidity was pointed out to him.

    It wasn't that nothing was found. That Gardaí screwed it up going so far as to lose the gate near the crime scene that they brought with them.

    Other evidence is so overwhelming to convict Bailey. The man was a thug threatening people also. He enjoyed taking the piss out of the paddies and there are plenty of tin foil hat merchants out there who would never find him guilty ….. If they saw video footage from 1996 of Bailey murdering Sophie they'd claim it was AI in 2025.

    Let us also make it clear. Bailey has been found guilty in a criminal court in France and sentenced in absentia. That's a fact.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    My understanding is that Lyons didn't mix with others and there were only fleeting moments between Lyons and Bailey. They weren't friends.

    Bailey went looking for sex I'd say and when Sophie didn't offer it he killed her. She ran from the house and he ran after her giving her an awful death.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,400 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    We do know for certain, that Bailey wasn't doing or dealing in or distributing drugs. We also do know for certain that he didn't cheat on Jules or chase after other women in the area. We also do know that he didn't beat up other women, other than Jules, and that only under the influence of alcohol.

    Other than writing freelance articles about a murder in West Cork he also had no financial gain regarding this murder, nor is there any proof of a long term connection between Sophie and Bailey.

    Except the Ungerers, all the others Sophie can be connected to in relation to West Cork did indeed have a brush with the law. Bolger and Alfie for drugs, Finbarr some violence many years back, and then there was her husband with motivation of avoiding a costly divorce.

    With all of these characters, motive as well as a longer term connection can't be easily explained away.

    Thus in absence of any evidence, motive or longer term connection, it's far more likely it wasn't Bailey at all.

    And then there is the completely botched up police investigation with the unknown quantity of possible corruption as well as drifters, complete madmen or that German musician..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,085 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    You've already contradicted yourself.
    "it was possible he was turning up to contaminate the scene before Harbison arrived."

    How was he going to do that? The Guards were there, there was a cordon and there's no record of him being inside the cordon on the day of the murder or before Harbinson arrived.

    You couldn't stand over any of that when challenged so now you've shifted the goal posts to another claim, that he was the first civilian on the scene.

    Again, what is your source for any of these claims?

    The DPP report looked at Bailey's arrival at the scene, looked at his account of the tree and turkeys and didn't find anything suspicious:

    "Bailey’s explanation for the scratches is plausible, consistent and is supported by other direct and credible evidence."

    The Guards lost track of the gate, however it was sent to the forensics lab and no forensics was found on it after that study incriminating Bailey. Briar samples were taken and studied. Nothing was found.
    Sophie's boot was checked, and an unknown male DNA sample was found on it - not Bailey's.
    So whatever the flaws in the Garda investigation, and there are many, they looked for forensics on Bailey and tested and found nothing. Which discredits the narrative of him being injured at the scene.

    Being a thug does not make you guilty of murder. How many other thugs were there in West Cork?

    The trial in France was a kangaroo court and an embarassment to French judicial system. No defence was presented and Marie Farrell's evidence was accepted as fact - evidence which doesn't stand up to scrutiny and she has withdrawn. Any finding by a court based on her evidence is completely unsafe and a recipe for a miscarriage of justice.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,550 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Before Bailey arrived at the outer cordon more than 4 hours after the discovery of the body and 2 hours after it was broadcast on Aertel and over 1 hour after it was broadcast on the one o'clock news;

    Shirley Foster,

    Alfie Lyons

    Doctor

    Priest

    Finbarr Helen

    Josie Hellen

    John Hellen

    That I know of had been at the scene, the first 5 of these had been within a yard or two of Sophie where she lay. Bailey didn't get within 200 yards of the body and the murder scene was not even visible from the outer cordon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    Well Bailey was hardly going to arrive on the scene himself nd call the guards ffs.

    Tell me - Why do you think Bailey burnt the clothes (the following day) that he wore on the night of the murder?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    The French do not operate kangaroo courts. Bailey should have been extradited from Ireland.

    The French discovered the DNA sample in 2011 - 15 years after the murder. When they arrived at Bantry garda station to test the evidence (boot) they were given nine bags….all of which were already opened.



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