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End The Provincials

  • 11-06-2025 09:51PM
    #1
    Posts: 0


    For the love of God have they created a College course to understand the rules regarding Championships etc?

    You play your provincials and if you lose you win you go through to the final after the round robin but if you lose you go into the Quarter final and if you are bottom you go into the Mickey Joe Murphy cup (which is second tier) but instead of being penalised you can still qualify for the All-Ireland Series the following season by winning it, but if you lose in the semi finals you are not gone as you enter the preliminary quarter finals….and so on etc etc

    What kind of gibberish is this???

    In Football….32 teams….have two divisions of 16 with promotion relegation and top 8 is Quarter Finals.

    In Hurling….something similar

    Nobody has an open air parade after a provincial…..= nobody cares anymore.

    Come into the 21st century lads.



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭randd1


    I wouldn't go that far, but I get the idea.

    Football would be easy enough. Given a full clean slate to do what I want and the power to start from scratch, with 33 teams in football I'd create; 3 tiers (Senior, Intermediate & Junior) of 11 teams playing round robin, top 2 to SF's, next 4 to QF's. Two up (the finalists)/two down in promotion /relegation.

    And I'd have a separate straight knockout, finish-on-the-day cup competition based on the traditional provincial system, which would be played during the round robin phase, with the cup final played before the penultimate round of the round robin phase.

    Football has the teams, and the competitiveness to make that work well.

    Hurling is a lot more difficult, and there's a catch 22. The system is completely unfair and lopsided due to protecting Munster at every level which means there's no chance of a fair competition in the championship. And yet without the quality of Munster, there's a real case to be had that hurling could be dying off, that Munster is holding it together, especially in the last few years.

    Obviously the National League is the fairest competition out there, especially in it's current format, but hurling simply doesn't have enough good teams to make any significant changes work. The NHL works simply because there are 7 team groups are two up/two down. Dublin/Wexford/Galway have been poor for a while now and haven't show much at any level, so that's leaving Kilkenny and the 5 Munster counties, and Waterford are barely keeping their nose above water there as well, while Kilkenny have also badly regressed.

    The provincials aren't the problem in hurling. The sheer lack of competitive teams is. If the Munster final had had a replay as some wanted (for the record, extra time and penalties are the correct choice), and say Limerick and Cork went to the AI final, and that went to a replay (I think there are replays for a final now, it's wanted) then Limerick and Cork would have met 5 times in the championship. That's not good for the sport.

    Post edited by randd1 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,298 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    The Provinces rattled along for a hundred years in football, with the likes of Waterford, Leitrim, Fermanagh and Wicklow lucky to get two games a year. The Provinces have the power and nothing can be done to dislodge that.

    We still have the League and for the last 25 years a new AI series. Giving 16 teams a chance at the AI instead of the previous 4. And the other 16 have the Tailteann. Everyone gets a few more games, and I think that is the extent of what can be aspired to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,574 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    It is getting towards your way of thinking. But the GAA has to be nudged along. If that new series on RTE on football has reminded me of anything. It is that the GAA (covid excluded) moves in extremely slow motion.
    The truth is in the GAA local normally has massive sway over that national. When it should be the other way around!
    Ulster provincial council holds football hostage. And the Munster provincial council holds hurling hostage (although to a lesser degree than football as there is less depth)

    Until the GAA becomes more autocratic nationally this won’t change soon. At least in football the championship is now linked with league performance. Major step forwards lost in the rule changes of football and the split season.
    But your issue is fundamentally too much democracy in the the GAA and they try and please everyone partly while at the same time pleasing no one. They love giving teams chances and lots of safety nets. Which is why their competitions become so unnecessarily complicated after the provincials. While still having one foot in local tradition. It is the oddest thing about the GAA. Slow to change. But when they do invariably it is a fudge. It is why I am pleased they “outsourced” the football rule changes. And it only took a pandemic for the split season to occur!

    If Covid never happened I would argue that the GAA would not have been as “brave” on the football rule changes. As Covid gave an air of change, releasing the handbrake.

    But now I predict the GAA will revert to type listening to everyone and no one.. Tying itself in knots. In that comfortable slow motion cloak while thinking of local “tradition” above all else.

    Which I suspect is ar the heart of the OP’s frustration.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,298 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    I'm not taking any credit for the emergence of Qualifiers, Back Doors, Super Eights, Group Stages, Tommy Murphy Cup, Tailteann Cup and the rest in football. But they have solved the genuine problem of most teams getting only one or two games a year championship football. This is about as much as can humanly be done to put a square Jeopardy peg into a round More Games hole.

    My preference would be a league competition to determine the best team. But like all the other suggestions on this forum, it would have zero chance of being accepted.

    Post edited by dxhound2005 on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I get your point about Munster but there is too much hanging onto the past.

    Hate to admit this but I am old enough to remember Liam Mulvihill on the Late Late show back in the early 80s right after World Football leagues had introduced on shirt advertising for the first time and Gay asked him if he envisaged a time when the GAA would follow suit.

    Que the old chestnut "hehehe Gay we are an amateur organisation".

    Time to get with the 21st century lads….corporate boxes, paid managers, expenses that run into millions, sponsored cars….

    Nobody cares about provincial titles.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,279 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Louth care about their provincial title. Donegal care about their provincial title.

    Cork hurlers care about their provincial title.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 502 ✭✭✭Pixel Eater


    The GAA aren't opposed to change. Sure they've massively changed the rules of football, moved the All-Irelands to July and foreign sports in their grounds is now a common occurrence. They even allowed Muslim prayers in the sacred turf of Croke Park.

    Still they, inexplicably, won't drop the provincials. That's a bridge too far apparently.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,574 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Only because it was so rare for Louth. If they won more than a few it would become just a means to an end - Sam or contending for Sam.

    As for Donegal that is just the competitiveness with Tyrone and Armagh. The rest of the counties in Ulster are not really competitive in Ulster bar Cavan's Covid win. Which was a the real reason for their win.

    Cork hurlers only care about Munster because they had not won it in 7 years. Again, if they won a few it would be seen as a means to an end. Contending for Liam or winning Liam.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,279 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Monaghan and Derry won Ulsters in recent years. Down will likely get their act together again. Fermanagh does not have the population, only Antrim under perform.

    In a functioning Leinster championship Louth would win from time to time, and Meath and Kildare would win some, so that each would value it when they won one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭blowitupref


    Watch back on the reaction of Galway,Louth,Donegal players,management and supporters after winning a provincial title to know the "nobody cares" view is not true



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They care about it the night of back at their main county town pub….they don't care about it enough to go on the p!$$ for a week or a month afterwards….when they get knocked out of the Jimmy Clancy cup or the preliminary semi final to get to the preliminary Quarter Final through the back window or whatever format they chose this year to do anything but an open draw….it is just pig headed stupidness.

    It is a bit like for years older people had an aerial on their roof and the Gov coaxed and cajoled them with offers of freeview etc etc…until they said….ENOUGH….you either come into the modern age with dishes because we are shutting down aerial signals.

    End the provincials ffs.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    How long did the celebrations last? A few drinks in the county town pub because "tuesday we are back training for the only meaningful one….".

    Show me the bus parade to show they care?

    Interview them when they get beaten in the real games to come and show me the "never mind we won a provincial" interviews.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Their format with the Tailtean Cup and this cup and that cup is basically stickers or stars for everyone so they don't feel left out in school.

    For instance after a 17 year gap Spurs won a trophy….when we got to the Champions League final in 2019 I was fully prepared to risk life and limb and climb up from my kitchen flat roof to my main roof and plant a Spurs flag on the chimney.
    Of course we got beaten….

    So when we won the Europa I considered it and as great as that way, when the cold light of day hit me….secondary cup…we beat weak teams and an equally crap team (United 16th) in the final….so I didn't.

    The provincials are the same. Weak and second rate. Meaningless. Old men sitting in a room somewhere hanging on to the past.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,279 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    That's about the quality of the argument, considering that people still use aerials to receive TV.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah….and the quality of your comeback is your extensive stats of 'people' is how many? Farmer Giles and Nancy down the road in the boreen could qualify as 'people'.

    Those that do are as backward as those who want to keep the back door, super 8s, preliminary quarter finals with losers of the provincials etc….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,574 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    When you think about it logically why were the provincials designed as is ? Simple answer ease of travel. Not just the local aspect. Travel is now much easier than even the 1980’s. I remember as young lad going to Galway it was some trek by car even. Before that car train or bicycle were the options in bygone days before it.

    The “provincials” should really be a preseason competition. And better still set it up on basis of league placings three div 1 and three div 2. Make weaker “provinces” with div 3 and div 4.

    The provinces are way unbalanced as currently set up. Too many teams in Leinster, too few teams in Munster and Connacht. No way would anyone invent the provincials as is if starting from a blank page. It is archaic not fit for purpose.

    The change will happen eventually you just have to wait for the old codgers to die off, as younger generations go in GAA admin roles.

    Also in hurling it was telling KK only care about the “more direct route” to the bigger prize. A Leinster itself is an ambivalence at best.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,298 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    It has nothing to do with the admin roles. The clubs, counties and provinces will decide, via Congress. Just like they did by majority in suspending the McKenna Cup and the other pre season competitions. But whether that will be permanent is open to futher consideration.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,574 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Conferences as the Yanks call them is the way forward. Will happen eventually.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭blowitupref


    All winners showed at the full time whistle in those provincial finals how much they cared. Discussion over.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 156 ✭✭guanciale


    The Munster Hurling Championship works and has done more than it hasnt in its long and changing history. The competition has a long sold out stadia. People want to win it and hurling fans come from all over to savour it. Limerick saoured our victories, just as Cork will savour theirs at weekend.

    Leinster doesnt work as well as there are too many teams of variable quality. We should be seeking to strengthen attractiveness of Leinster (perhaps 2 groups of 3 - home and away. Winners in Leinster final, second play for 3rd spot.

    At same time, Joe Mc, Christy Ring should start later and finish around same time as Liam. Small evolutions can make what we have better, without killing one of the best things we have.

    The key to success in life is to leave well enough alone and focus on improving whats not working.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,574 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Hurling is in a real odd position though. So few competitive teams. Mostly localised in the one area. Munster hurling is the defacto AI let’s be honest. Repeated again later more than likely which is a cod. That is the real reason why Munster hurling gets such hype. Bar Galway and Kilkenny it is the only competitive high standard hurling area.

    Hurling is not a true National sport. But that is never said, by the Munster affectionado’s . It is not a sport that wants to expand really. They revel in the local not the national. Hurling has no hope of progression. It is a niche local sport with few competitors. And will unlikely ever change because the pool is so shallow.

    Football on the other hand has more depth.

    There should be no excuse to be tied to an archaic system designed for a different era.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Really good points….I had not known why they set them up and makes sense.

    I agree with all you say, everything else has come to pass….so this is just one of the last few things.

    On a side note the nex rules in Football means I can watch it again.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Elvis sold out Arenas too but some day you have to move on.

    Hanging around for the sake of 5 counties won't fly forever.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,574 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    I find it frustrating that the provincial structures are holding football back. I think there could be a really good product of a game. With competitive meaningful competition. But “tradition” holds it back.

    Hurling is not lucky enough to have the depth football has. So there is little else they can do.
    Much more scope with football though. It feels like it has more to give, like you say the rule changes helped.

    Which amazed me -

    1. They were changed
    2. Worked so well overall

    The vibe I get from the provincials is “sure that is the way it has always been done”.

    The arse has to fall out of ALL of it before they make changes to it basically.

    It would be lovely to have the same protectiveness with the provincials as was seen with the football rules. Even moving a few counties around would be an idea. For a start.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    Whichever of the league or provincial championships that comes first should not be providing direct access to the All Ireland. Whether people like it or not, provincial championships currently come after the league.

    After the 8 provincial semi finals are complete for the 8 finalists qualifying automatically, the remaining 23 counties should enter league playoffs for the 7 league qualifier spots. Byes and seeding on league placing.

    LEAGUE PLAYOFF SEMI FINALS

    Dublin bye

    Monaghan bye

    Roscommon bye

    Tyrone bye

    Derry bye

    Cavan v Wexford

    Cork v Antrim

    Offaly v Leitrim

    Kildare v Wicklow

    Westmeath v Carlow

    Fermanagh v Tipperary

    Sligo v Longford

    Laois v London

    Limerick v Waterford

    LEAGUE PLAYOFF FINALS

    Dublin v Offaly

    Monaghan v Kildare

    Roscommon v Westmeath

    Tyrone v Fermanagh

    Derry v Sligo

    Cavan v Limerick

    Cork v Laois

    This way there is some danger in missing out on provincial finals. The big guns will obviously be expected to get through but they'll have to sweat over it.

    As all counties will have two goes at getting through to the All Ireland, the Tailteann Cup 16 could be direct knockout.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,279 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Travel being easier depends on where you are, it still takes 7 hours to go from Donegal to Cork and hotels are difficult to get nowadays. and with 7 Ulster teams and Louth the lost county it would still mostly be an Ulster championship.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I really thought I had said all I wanted on this but maybe I have mentioned it or forgot I mentioned it but after the group phase in Football they couldn't just have the four groups provide the top 2 in each for Quarter Finals?

    Preliminary Quarter Finals???? Huh??

    They play all those games to eliminate 4 teams?

    God forbid you would eliminate any of the bigger draws to make money in Croke Park.

    I hate the fact that they expanded the FIFA WC to 48 teams which leaves the same sort of scenario.

    NFL, NBA and NHL do something similar….

    But nobody tops the GAA for complicating how they run competitions for complication sake.

    Nothing more than a money making exercise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    The Super 8s had some dead rubbers in Round 3. The intention from Croke Park seems to be a format without any dead rubbers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭Isthisthingon?


    Im not to old to remember the 4 provinces hurling competition.

    Ulster - Always Antrim and the usual turkey shoot of every other team

    Connaught - Always Galway and see above point

    Leinster - Always Kilkenny and arguably closer games but ultimately a forgone conclusion.

    Munster - Somewhat of a mixed bag with 2 or 3 teams capable of wining and a rise and dip of form for each respective county. ( and Kerry not even 'allowed' to play)

    What do we have now?

    Ulster and connaght hurling effectively sacrificed for a failed Leinster experiment ( of which only 3 of the said counties in a province of 12 continuously play) , and the lobsided munster competition.

    To be clear , clare and waterford are out because they didnt win enough games. But can anyone seriously argue the merits of throwing in the Mcdonagh cup winners/ runners into a game ( and i use that term deliberately) for a guaranteed hiding other than a patronising pat on the head ?

    Does anyone think the either clare or waterford could have beaten Tipp or Dublin instead ? Possibly not but I wouldnt rule it out either .( and no i'm not advocating for another chance for the 2 'failed' munster teams, I am just pointing out it would have been an interesting contest as opposed to the exhibition matches we saw).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 761 ✭✭✭supernova5


    don't know where you are getting the "possibly not" Clare/Dublin or Tipp/Wat or Clare/Tipp and or Wat/Dublin would be 50/50 games any way you look at it



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