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Women's prisons and the Gender Recognition Act (2015)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    I presume it's too much to ask you to accept that women have rights too?

    By which I mean, to engage with the facts in the OP which show that by putting even one TW prisoner in with women, ALL the women suffer degraded living conditions. Why exactly is it trans bashing to say that women should have rights?

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    No, it's to try to clarify language, so that everybody understands that when we discuss whether someone like Barbie Kardashian should be held in the male or the female estate, we're not talking about putting a biological female in with male prisoners. And there's plenty of evidence that many people - including apparently yourself - don't fully understand it. Otherwise you wouldn't have made suc an eejit of yourself saying that TIMs were trans men.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,781 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    I don't engage with terfs or people with an anti-trans agenda. Find fuel for your fire elsewhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Except that you just did 😁 You chose to join in here.

    But do feel free to scroll on by.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • Site Banned Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Raichų


    this would be my biggest problem with the whole transgender thing- you say anything a supporter disagrees with and you’re trans bashing.

    But the thing is no one’s bashing anyone here. It’s a discussion about transgender prisoners and where should they be placed. No one’s bashed trans people here?

    Unless you think it’s transphobic to say Barbie Kardashian’s a head case?



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  • Site Banned Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Raichų


    notice how that’s the default answer!

    “You trans basher!”

    “Wait can you explain what you mean?”

    “FCUK OFF TRANS HATER I DONT BELIEVE IN YOUUUUU”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,900 ✭✭✭donaghs


    If trans women are women, and the debate is settled. Then why are they being segregated from other women prisoners? Has anyone provided an official explanation for this anamoly?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,781 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    The poster was told that using the phrase, "Trans identifying male" is transphobic, yet refuses to stop using it. There's no point in engaging with posters like that. Zero.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,559 ✭✭✭Bogey Lowenstein
    That must be Nigel with the brie...


    The 'no debate' tactic is a way to cut and run because they know they haven't a leg to stand on.



  • Site Banned Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Raichų


    I’d echo what I said yesterday on this- if you want to identify as a woman and live your life as one that is not something I’d have an issue with

    But when you go to prison it’s sort of the point where you stop getting to decide the majority of your life from that point until (if) you leave- so if you’re a man who identifies as a woman unfortunately while you are a bold pup and require incarceration you will be housed in a men’s prison.

    Similarly a women identifying as a man wouldn’t be placed in a men’s prison. Of course I’m sure the same people **** themselves over this discussion to begin with don’t have a problem with that. I find it interesting that it only seems to be the men who want to be women get treated so delicately.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    I genuinely feel really sorry for Barbie Kardashian (but still would run a mile from someone who's clearly a danger to women) - but when you read about Alejandro Gentile's childhood, with a horrendously abusive father who forced him to join in the unspeakable abuse of his mother, the child never had a chance. It really is tragic, and I hate that "clown" picture that seems to be the only one available in the media. That's because nobody but gript.ie covered the case properly at the time: the others all wrote the most bizarre, incomprehensible versions of the accepted narrative that BK was a young woman, who for inexplicable reasons was so dangerous to women that she had to be kept in prison even before she'd actually committed a crime.

    IMO if the mainstream media had been honest at the start, they could have covered the story properly, and explained that here was a young man who had been mentally destroyed by his father's abuse, and who needed help. Instead we got "ha ha this is a clown". And the worst is that now that the other media are covering the story a bit, they all use that awful picture.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,900 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Realistically, I don’t think you can you debate when you essentially find an opposing view as “transphobic” , and therefor “pointless” engaging with them?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    LOL The poster was told by you, an anonymous poster on the internet. What makes you the arbiter on this? I've explained why a prisoner's biological sex is relevant in this thread, and there is no intention to be mean for the sake of it.

    The proof that there's a need for clarity is that the poster trying to pull me up on this, laughably got the definitions wrong himself - because that's what happens when you try to do like Humpty Dumpty and say that words mean whatever you want them to mean.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,922 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    Why do you think all women suffer because there is a transwomen segregated in the same prison?



  • Site Banned Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Raichų


    you could tell me right now the sky is racist but does that mean unequivocally I need to stare at the ground forever?

    Or does it mean that it’s your opinion the sky is racist and until I further substantiate the claim to the point I’m satisfied either way I can otherwise continue to discuss the matter with you with a view to forming the final opinion?

    point is it would make drastically more sense to engage in a discussion with a view to sharing your reasoning for feeling that term is inappropriate (but i can’t really see why and unfortunately the reasoning given earlier is as structurally sound as a wet sand castle.

    In my opinion transgender people should and really would benefit from a little bit of just growing up a bit and stop looking to be so offended by everything. I say that not to be cruel or transphobic (which you’re free to call me if you want); but considering the fact they seem to never shut up, never be happy with anything and continually shift goal posts it makes it hard to feel sorry for them at all.

    Other minorities such as people of colour, gay, lesbian etc- they fight the good fight day on day but you don’t see them constantly changing what terms are ok what terms are not etc. transgenderism is such a confusing mess and apparently unless you love them and accept their every demand you’re a transphobe.

    I used to have tremendous support for them. Now I just kind of want them to sit down and shut up for a while. I’m aware how that sounds too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 407 ✭✭baxterooneydoody


    Great way to engage debate, ignore anyone with a different view point than yours, enjoy your echo chamber



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,781 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien




  • Site Banned Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Raichų


    why do you ask the questions you’ve had answers numerous times in slightly different ways?

    As has been explained to you, several times now, women generally feel unsafe at the presence of a male prisoner within a female prison. I’m sure there’s plenty of women in prison who wouldn’t give a shite but if there’s ones that do they need to be listened to and taken seriously.

    In fairness Suvi if you were raped as a child or young woman and then told there’s a male prisoner in the same place you are now locked in 24 hours a day would you feel comfortable? Even if that person is segregated.

    What you’re doing is applying rational thought to a fear. People in prison are rarely in a rational and well put together state of mind.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,922 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    my opinion transgender people should and really would benefit from a little bit of just growing up a bit and stop looking to be so offended by everything. I say that not to be cruel or transphobic (which you’re free to call me if you want); but considering the fact they seem to never shut up, never be happy with anything and continually shift goal posts it makes it hard to feel sorry for them at all.

    Which transgender people don't shut up? To be perfectly honest the only people that don't seem to shut up, are the anti trans crowd. I see and hear them constantly trying to take away basic human rights from trans people. Or suggest that they shouldn't be afforded any rights!

    I can honestly say, I haven't heard or seen any trans people doing or saying anything!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Are you planning on going round in circles on this yet again? I've already explained twice. If you don't get it, read the article I linked to in the OP which explains with data about overcrowding how exactly women are adversely affected by the presence of even one TW in an already overcrowded prison.

    Or listen to Paddy O'Gorman's interviews, in which women themselves who were in prison at the same time as those TW are given a chance to speak for themselves about it. Things like how they were shut back in their cells more often than would be the norm to give the TW prisoners time out of their cells. Which is understandable - they hadn't been sentenced to solitary confinement, so legally they're entitled to time out of their cells.

    But that means the women are locked up more than they normally would be.

    I'm puzzled why you think this doesn't matter.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



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  • Site Banned Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Raichų


    you’ve never seen a trans person say anything?

    Okay Suvi, sure you haven’t. It’s all the anti trans people trying to take their human rights, like deciding which prison they go to and which team they play sports for 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,922 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    In fairness, you don't know anything about my past, so we can leave that out of it thanks. If prisoners are separated there is no risk.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,922 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    No, the IPS decided which prison they go to, which is perfectly appropriate I think.

    And no, I haven't. Can you link me to all these trans people that just won't shut up



  • Site Banned Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Raichų


    are you ignoring the part where I explained rational and reasonable thought doesn’t exist in a prison?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,559 ✭✭✭Bogey Lowenstein
    That must be Nigel with the brie...


    Not a risk? If you were one of those female prisoners having dog's abuse and threats roared at you on a regular basis what is that going to do to your stress and anxiety levels and mental health in general?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,699 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Other minorities such as people of colour, gay, lesbian etc- they fight the good fight day on day but you don’t see them constantly changing what terms are ok what terms are not etc. transgenderism is such a confusing mess and apparently unless you love them and accept their every demand you’re a transphobe.

    Heh 😋

    I should really grow up though 😒



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,922 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    How many prisoners do you know, or how many have you had dealings with? How many people do you know that are in and out of prison regularly? You telling me that rational thoughts don't exist in prison doesn't make it true.



  • Site Banned Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Raichų


    and as was explained by volchista if women in prison are afforded less leisure and recreation time because of the need to keep trans prisoners segregated then they are suffering immensely.

    Now you can start talking about stripping people of their human rights and dignity. When you’re locked up for more of day than you are not every minute counts.

    If it’s say 18 hours in 6 hours out but if a trans prisoner is in the place now it’s 20 hours in 4 hours out that is MASSIVE. That’s 14 hours a WEEK these women are not getting out of their cells!

    How can you sit there and say that’s not an issue?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    It's not an issue because women don't really matter. As long as they don't actually die, it's all good. That really seems to be the approach.

    Not for the first time, it reminds me strongly of the anti choice argument that women don't usually die due to pregnancy, and therefore what are they complaining about when it's just their health that's involved.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



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  • Site Banned Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Raichų


    Ah look this is just going in circles now. You are mad to think people in prison men or women are in the best frame of mental state I mean cop on to yourself.

    Throw into the mix the potential for having recreational activities reduced, verbal abuse increased & sense of fear enhanced, yeah they’re definitely living the dream.

    I don’t believe in God but I might start researching one to pray to because at this stage I think there’s no other hope for people such as yourself to understand that putting on a dress and calling yourself Mary doesn’t entitle you to space in women’s prisons, women’s sports or even women’s restrooms.

    Transgender people have a right to be in society and a right to be respected but they do not have a right to latch on to women’s identities and strip actual women of their lifestyles they’ve lived for ions and fought diligently and hard for years to achieve. I tell ya one thing, where were all these trans women before you could vote, have a job and all the other basic human rights women had to fight and die for? How convenient they are all about it when things start getting better for ye.



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