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What’s your most controversial opinion? **Read OP** **Mod Note in Post #3372**

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,834 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    I hate to say it but I think Donald Trump might be the best President for the times



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,359 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    That’s true. Because most schools are around our own by churches if the government tried to prevent any religious instruction of any kind happening in them this would violate their freedom to practice their religion, which is quite rightly protected in the constitution, as it is in all countries that value freedom.

    If they want to get rid of religion from school, they’re going to have to take them into public ownership. But you would need all new boards of management to be hired because the existing ones consist of clergy and religious lay people who would not want to manage a secular school. You would have to hire tens of thousands of new staff, as well as purchasing the buildings and often the land too off the church.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,417 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    They can practice their religion to their heart's content - but there's no obligation for the state to facilitate that as part of the state funded primary school day.

    Tens of thousands of new staff? what are you inhaling? Is any teacher who has worked under a relgious patron going to be blackballed, or something?

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,645 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    well, your first paragraph isn't really correct, the constitutional right to freedom of religion does not include schools having to teach it. I don't understand why you would need new staff though?

    it's still not as easy as taking the schools away from religious orders, we do agree



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,592 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Freedom of religion should be removed from constitution and fundamental human rights. It is not, and should not ever be, a right to spread hateful and divisive ideology under the guise of religion, and under the protection of it being a human right.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,158 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    This a Yank thing you on about?

    Irish constitution section below, not sure what the issue is.

    ARTICLE 44

    1 The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.

    2

    1° Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.

    https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html#article44

    Most self proclaimed free speech absolutists are giant big whiny snowflakes!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,645 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,592 ✭✭✭Cordell


    The whole article is flawed by the reference to an unknown and non-existing entity. It should be replaced as:

    Freedom of conscience is guaranteed to every citizen

    And that's enough. More than enough. There is no need to give religion any extra protection.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,158 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    I don't disagree that line 1 is superfluous. But in the 70's it may have provided succor to Catholics as their special status in the constitution was being removed by the amendment that was accepted.

    Most self proclaimed free speech absolutists are giant big whiny snowflakes!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,865 ✭✭✭✭EmmetSpiceland


    Yeah, I don’t think this is about Catholics, though, R.

    EmmetSpiceland: Oft imitated but never bettered.

    “It is not blood that makes you Irish but a willingness to be part of the Irish nation” - Thomas Davis



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65 ✭✭EmergencyExit


    We have two types of media in Ireland, state run media that aren't going to ever step on the governments toes in any meaningful way otherwise funding will be pulled and job loses will follow ( 723 million cough cough) and special interest media the likes of Newstalk and Irish Independent etc… who serve their owners agenda and promote their point of view. Yes we have Gript and they are thankfully starting to make traction but it's slow and they are up against it.

    I don't know if it's a controversial opinion but i think RTE should be cut lose and this will in the long run be much healthier for the country in terms of impartial journalism and holding the political class to account which obviously we have never done in this nation.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,957 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    There's nothing controversial about this. It's the same discredited MAGA trope it's always been.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,592 ✭✭✭Cordell




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,645 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    Do you think we should remove the preamble also?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,592 ✭✭✭Cordell


    If I wasn't clear enough, yes, everything related to religion. Religion, the word itself, and any reference to it or supernatural entities should be removed from all laws.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,645 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    Ok, not disagreeing with you, but you don't think people should have the right to practice their religion?

    Like, I don't believe in any god but I do believe in people's rights



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭randd1


    "As well as purchasing the buildings and often the land too off the church".

    Just on this, I'm curious and I'm hoping anyone can help me out.

    Say for example, if the government wanted to take them back, would they have any recourse to do so under squatters rights?

    And if they don't, can they pass legislation to ensure that in the leasing of the land/school by the church, that any upgrades to facilities passed down by law would have to be paid for by the landlord (the church) as opposed to being funded by the tenant (the state).

    I'm sure the gritty bits of law are around these things are secured more tighter than a pious nun's ars€ sealed with superglue, but is there any recourse from the state to either get the school/land under the squatters rights or force the church (as landlords) to upgrade the schools to better levels at their expense?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    Hmmm people's rights and religion.

    Like the right to wipe out other religions.

    Or that women have no rights.

    That vaccination is not right.

    That keeping a pregnant brain dead person on life support until the baby is extracted is right.

    That male genital mutilation is right.

    That female genital mutilation is right.

    That brutal treatment of animals is right.

    That the destruction of the environment is right.

    Etc etc etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,592 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Of course. Do you need a freedom of music right to listed to music? Do you need a freedom of films right to watch movies? So you don't need a freedom of religion either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,417 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    1 The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.

    That is ridiculous. An embarrassment. The nonsense in the preamble needs to go too.

    That doesn't need to be specifically mentioned in the constitution though, any more than any other hobby some people engage in

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,645 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    Human rights in this country are very highly protected thankfully



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,645 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    Lots of rights are protected by the constitution without being specifically mentioned. Personal rights are highly protected so I can't imagine taking any rights out of the constitution would ever happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,645 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    You would if the state decided that you couldn't listen to music or watch movies, the constitution is there to protect personal rights, why would you want them taken away? It's strange that people want their rights, but don't want them protecting



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭randd1


    They are.

    My controversial opinion is that while I'm thankful we take human rights so seriously here, I also think that when it comes to crime, we too often we put too much emphasis on the criminals rights than the victims, especially in the context of sexual crimes.

    There's far too much emphasis on civil rights and not anywhere near enough on civil responsibility, and in my opinion you can't have one without the other, but far too often we ignore the civil responsibility when discussing civil rights when it comes to criminality. And that too often we also ignore the civil rights of citizens or communities to live without fear of criminals, or in the context of sentencing, be protected adequately from the more serious criminals.

    I'm not saying criminals should not have civil rights, but most certainly they should not be treated with the kid gloves they so often are. And if they don't care about their victims or communities civil rights, than society should be allowed to not care about theirs in return when dealing with them.

    As an aside, mental health is not an excuse for being a scumbag and should never be factored into sentencing unless said person has been receiving consistent treatment for years. Self-diagnosing of mental problems should never be allowed as part of a defence or explanation for behaviour. There's only so many times you can read a report of a solicitor saying their client suffers from "mental health issues" as they're before the judge for the 50th time before you realise solicitors and their clients don't actually give a damn about said "mental health issues" until they're in Court.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6 HappyCorner


    we don’t pay enough taxes and that why we deserve **** services



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,957 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Yes you do. A cursory glance at Europe's history would show why very, very quickly.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    Forgot, another right.

    I'll refer to my own "religion" here because it's somehow "racist" to refer to other religions and also risky. Seems ok to criticize Catholicism till the cows come home. Ah, but that's another story ... back to rights ...

    The right to indoctrinate children. Example: If you disobey our religion or leave it you will burn in hell forever.

    Imagine indoctrinating a child with that ?

    What could that possibly do their their mind ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,645 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    There is no right to indoctrinate children. That's a choice parents make.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    The problem is you don't have a choice if you are indoctrinated.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,957 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    There are a few problems with this.

    The first is the cost of administering and dispensing justice. A lot of Western countries have ageing populations and stagnant economies so a lot of states have implemented austerity to some degree. Populations despise tax rises so a lot of things effectively become decriminalised such as burglary in the UK.

    Second, I think the concept of punishment is highly overrated. People don't google what the penalty for a crime is before committing it so I don't think deterrent is much of a factor. The states in the USA with the death penalty have the highest violent crime and murder rates for example.

    Third, your proposed shift is cultural and that sort of change takes a very long time. How long were gay people marginalised and oppressed (and still are) before a lot of people felt they could vote for marriage equality? Centuries. The Catholic Church in Ireland not being what it was obviously helps but it still takes time.

    We need to be realistic in that here in Europe, the odds of being violently murdered are incredibly low. However, I think that if you want people to obey the law, the small laws must be enforced. I've developed a deep hatred for cyclists very recently for example. Here in London, they're on the pavement regularly and I've had a few near misses. They don't care and it's illegal but the police tolerate it as per guidance from the Chief Superintendent. I regularly see people, especially Deliveroo drivers, force their way through the barrier for the Tube while eejits like me pay nearly a tenner a day for the privilege but TfL staff are strictly told to do nothing. If petty crime is tolerated, it creates a culture of acceptance, leading to more crime.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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