Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Not everyone believes your fictional figures regarding the deaths in Gaza. Israel is comfortable killing civilians to get to Hamas. That you support theses tactics are pretty disheartening.

Hamas should ofcourse releases the hostages.

Of those killed in Gaza, how many (in your opinion) were:

1. Hamas militants?
2. Collateral damage?
3. Just murdered for s***s and giggles?

Unfortunately, the poster in question isn't aware of the actual facts of what he is trying to discuss. If he was, he would know that the Kyujo incident was a complete failure and it was a failure because the officers in question couldn't rally any support and their efforts remained a very small scale endeavour. They ended up being arrested themselves.

They all committed seppuku by the way, out of shame.

All we have here with Sean's limited effort is a YouTube video and a link to a wiki page that he probably didn't read all the way through which is telling in and of itself.

At the end of the day, it changes nothing. The fact still remains that Japan was seeking a way to surrender in 1945 and peace could have been achieved without recourse to the bomb.

Facts will always outweigh beliefs, no matter what the context.

Is there a solution that could bring Israel and Palestine back into some kind of equilibrium?

It seems to me that so much bad blood has been engendered that this seems like a naive fantasy of the highest order, but let's talk it through, anyway…

If western powers were to say to Israel that they would support their right to DEFEND themselves, but withdraw support with respect to these kinds of the most bloody, protracted offensive operations, what would someone like Netanyahu actually DO about that? Like, what does Israel have over western powers that enables this seemingly unequivocal support? Is this where people claim there is a shadowy cabal of powerful/monied Jews who are pulling the strings of western foreign policy?

I've often wondered how much the idea of a stable allied state that provides solid assurance over the physical security of the holy sites of Christianity makes for influence over the policy of the Christian western powers, especially the US, where evangelicals are a powerful voting block, but I don't see much about this, so I can only suppose it's not a popular theory.

Withdrawing all support for Israel would almost certainly lead to a bloodbath and ethnic cleansing in the other direction at some point.

Tempering Israel's ability to inflict this kind of suffering must start with voting out the politicians who are enabling it, but I don't think this will happen in the States. It would be up to the people of Europe to send a message at the polls.

The fact is that Japan did not surrender until after 2 atomic bombings, and the fact that such a coup attempt was even possible at that point shows how much resistance there was to the idea of surrender.

You keep clinging to this and it's just demonstrating your ignorance on the matter.

The so called "coup", which began and ended in a matter of mere hours, was quashed before it even got going, and it was put down by the Japanese themselves. It isn't any indication of what you thought it was. The fact that you want to desperately die on this hill shows you don't really know what you're trying to talk about here.

That there were a number of extremists interested in standing to the last man is not in dispute by anyone. That is the case in all militaries. However, the fact of the matter is that the Suzuki cabinet overwhelmingly supported the idea of surrender and so did Hirohito, the Emperor of Japan. The only discussion points in the summer of 1945 were how they were going to go about doing it and how much face they could save if at all possible.

But don't take my word for it. Here's Basil Liddell Hart again…

"It was the Emperor himself who moved to cut the knot. On June 20 he summoned to a conference the six members of the inner Cabinet, the Supreme War Direction Council, and there told them: ‘You will consider the question of ending the war as soon as possible.’ All six members of the Council were in agreement on this score, but while the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister and the Navy Minister were prepared to make unconditional surrender, the other three — the Army Minister and Army and Navy Chiefs of Staff — argued for continued resistance until some mitigating conditions were obtained. Eventually it was decided that Prince Konoye should be sent on a mission to Moscow to negotiate for peace — and the Emperor privately gave him instructions to secure peace at any price. As a preliminary, the Japanese Foreign Office officially notified Moscow on July 13 that ‘the Emperor is desirous of peace’.

The message reached Stalin just as he was setting off for the Potsdam Conference. He sent a chilly reply that the proposal was not definite enough for him to take action, or agree to receiving the mission. This time, however, he told Churchill of the approach, and it was of this that Churchill told Truman, adding his own tentative suggestion that it might be wise to modify the rigid demand for ‘unconditional surrender’.

A fortnight later the Japanese Government sent a further message to Stalin, trying to make still clearer the purpose of the mission, but received a similar negative reply. Meantime Churchill’s Government had been defeated at the General Election in Britain, so that Attlee and Bevin had replaced Churchill and Eden at Potsdam when, on July 28, Stalin told the Conference of this further approach.

The Americans, however, were already aware of Japan’s desire to end the war, for their Intelligence service had intercepted the cipher messages from the Japanese Foreign Minister to the Japanese Ambassador in Moscow."

Anyway, we're done here. I have no time to try and educate someone who wishes to be wilfully ignorant because they think there's some sort of win to be had.

Pro tip Sean, there's no prizes at the end of this. You just end up looking like a stubborn fool who's uncomfortable with historical facts that interfere with a narrative you built up in your head.

Israel is the most democratic country in the middle east - fact.

Minorities living in Israel itself enjoy more rights than minorities living in all of the surrounding countries. There are Muslims living in Israel happily working as doctors etc. Being gay in Israel is tolerated as in the west : in some Muslim countries you are killed for being gay. In Saudi Arabia, a country hundreds the size of Israel, Christians can worship or build a church.

In Israel the number of Mosques has increased in recent decades.

Not sure what your point is - would you care to elucidate?

Yes. I dont believe anything a terrorist organisation says strangely enough.

That HAMAS attack on October 7th couldn't have backfired anymore.

I fear Israel will bulldoze Gaza city and start building their own settlement's on it while relocating the Gazans closer to the Egyptian border. This will never be reversed as the Israeli lobby is too strong in Europe and America.

Does the population of the occupied territories get a vote?

It has been highlighted here in Ireland a bit, the govt have been very critical of it from the start of the war and have been criticised by the Israelis to the point pf withdrawing their ambassador. But short of America withdrawing support and materials from Israel, I don't see it being stopped.

The most democratic, yet the most authoritarian and the only one currently actively pursuing a genocidal land grab.

When the ICJ adjudicate on the two cases before it - one on the provision of aid and the other on Israeli Genocide.

I agree that the war is coming to a head. Hamas has been defeated, but they are unwilling to admit it and continue to refuse the release of the remaining hostages. They aren’t even interested in entering negotiations with Israel regarding the hostages.

We’ve now reached the point where someone must be willing to enter Gaza and police it—an outcome that was always inevitable. This will be an intensive and costly operation. The countries that claim to stand with the people of Gaza, both in the region and beyond, seem entirely unwilling to provide any meaningful assistance. I’m increasingly questioning the sincerity of those in the Middle East who say they support the people of Gaza. Meanwhile, much of the West appears to have grown weary of the war, as expected.

In other news, the IDF has issued an urgent evacuation warning for Yemen’s Sanaa International Airport.

RTE showing their colours again. Several times on the news at 1 they reported that Hamas have said they are "not interested" in talks with Israel.

They didn't say this. They said there was no point now in holding talks.

As reported by the BBC and everybody else.