Create a European Defence Force and Disband NATO in a few years

I can’t see Metz pulling Germany out of NATO, it would mean throwing out 35,000 US troops. I can see Germany demanding more European countries up their military spending though, for two reasons. To counter a reduction in likely input from the US and also to help boost their economy.

NATO has been an arm of the US for many years now - doing Americas bidding in Africa, Syria Afghanistan and the Middle East so of course it costs the US a lot. If Trump wants out let him go - we can no longer trust the word of the USA and it has a president who is just making things up as he goes along and persuing personal vandettas against people he just doesn’t like.

There's plenty of scumbags within the US who seem happy to cripple their own country rn. If anything the EU should hush their buzz about a new military force. Because when the US, and its seemingly current "allies" cop on to what is happening.; it's industry that is going to relocate… not soldiers. Imagine being 16 and wanting, today to fight for Trump and his cronies

I think nato served its purpose in history well when needed, but is now past its peak. Europe has its own defense structure, which nato never did like to see, our strategic autonomy is presently and will in the future be needed. Unstable characters like Trump and Erdogan can't be factors in our futures. Nor should UK tory govts be trusted much. Even Canada, good guys or not shouldnt be relied on, how much sacrifice can really be expected from people an ocean away. The temptation to just say fk it is always there.

Even within the EU those of us to the west have a much more relaxed attitude. Its just human to not be concerned by things away over there in distant lands. You have to have a stake in the game.

Which we do, but we just tend to forget it. A lot of our comforts and potential for success is underpinned by the EU. So we have incentives. Along with the incentive that if one of us can be harmed then we may be next. US, Canada dont have that. Even UK has its well armed island status to fall back on.

Europes defense can only be self controlled, independent, in-house, in the future. No external parties, no conditions based on the feverish whims of Americans or Turks, or Brits. Strategic autonomy is the way.

These last couple decades Nato was primarily a way to say to Russia 'not only European countries but the Americans too'. The Americans were a way to push it over the edge resoundingly. To send the message home if they weren't yet getting it. Their shyte performace in Ukraine shows that they were a paper tiger, but they themselves refused to believe it. US troops were in Europe to help awaken them from this delusion. Like a cork on a fork. To prevent them from hurting themselves, and others.

Post Ukraine and post EU rearmament we wont really need to point to the US to snap the Russians out of it. We can just point to a unified European defense. Thats the stick element, the genital cuff. And hopefully we can have good trade with Russia in the not too distant future, so that theres a carrot/Oklahoma element, Russias economy is in shyte by their own stupidity, and trade with Europe is their only way out.

Even Ukraine may serve as an alarm clock to wake Russians from their delusions. Its hard to maintain a delusion of grandeur and fantasies of going up against a far greater force than oneself when one cant defeat a far smaller force than oneself.

tldr. We can coordinate a $19trn economy so we can coordinate some form of coalition of self interest. Take the nato model, boot out the non-Europeans, individual representatives in Brussels as per the EU parliament.

Or just leave them there

In case of nuclear war that’s one less nuke being used up on that base instead of falling on a population center

National defense has always been ultimately under the control of the nations themselves, and all eu countries already do work together under the european defense agency.

France retains control of French nukes, which are more than enough to destroy Russia as a country, being that Russia as an entity is founded on 2 cities economically supporting the rest. Moscow and St Petersburg, themselves dependent on Eu trade, without which it all breaks apart.

If Putin threatens nukes then Id rather turn to France, part of Eu common security, than to Trump who describes the Eu as foe, says he wouldn't help, and talks of deactivating Europes American made products.

Moscow contains around 20 million people, nuking it is more than a punch on the nose. Thats guaranteed destruction back. If you're way over in Vladivostock and Moscow crumbles you're still doomed, you'll die in the ensuing socio-economic chaos, or starve, or have to emigrate, or you'll soon be Chinese or part of a separatist war.

Why should European defense boot out/disassociate from US and UK? Because they're not reliable. And that is whats happening. Strategic autonomy.

so you are basically saying that there should be no change then, we’ll just pull all the Eu nations out of NATO?

nato has jumped the shark. the trust is gone. never to return, no matter the administration.

and so are the potential arms sales for the u.s. (after their fk you to europe, their "foe") and thus much of their motivation for keeping it going.

whats their benefit now? is someone going to invade the u.s? how will europe react to some future u.s. led war or iraq type shenanigans in the mid east? european public perception of us reliability has plummeted.

they cant rely on us for help or for sales. we cant rely on them for help or purchases. we dont even know that their populist president isnt under russian influence, maga sure seems to be.

russias impending defeat, stalemate, or otherwise unimpressive fizzle out of ukraine (on their escooters) will remove any remaining justification for us having americans around.

the nato girl gang know it.

you seem to be confusing NATO and the US. They are not the same thing. You also seem to be under the impression that Trump will be president for ever. He won’t.

Correction, it was farm boys *born 100 years ago* from rural Canada and USA who came across an ocean.

The Canadians fighting for an empire which no longer exists. Two queens and one flag change ago. 45 years before Italia 90 ffs.

Your post just is not logical.

Im sure the Canadians are still great people, but no I dont think they can be relied on to spill their guts for the old continent, or rather for an empire just as bad as the nazis in many ways, that thankfully doesnt exist anymore.

An empire, lol. Just the word tells you how far back that was. History, where nato is headed.