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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans lifted - see OP**

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 557 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    I generally agree with this. On the blood in particular, regardless of who carried out the murder, how would it be possible for the killer to escape without leaving blood drops on their route? The only possibility I can see is they used a vehicle also.

    Interestingly earlier in the thread @PolicemanFox posted a picture of blood staining which was not 'numbered', and its location was not identified/disclosed. If all of the blood locations were in the public domain perhaps it would be easy enough to 'join-the-dots'.

    For example if the killer used a vehicle, they would have returned to the drivers door to get back in, perhaps with blood dripping off them, with spotting/splashing on the route, and more spots at the door (in close proximity to the tire tracks). Perhaps they cleaned off/changed in the vehicle, and then went back out, up the garden, and to the door with only minimal traces at these locations.

    This information should be readily available in the Garda files, (location of any and all tire tracks, location of blood stains), however the public has not been made aware of this, likely because it did not point to Bailey.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,340 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    Is it a give in that the killer would have been covered in and dripping the victims blood along his escape route ? Quite possibly not. Assuming the fatal blows were delivered to her head by a concrete breeze block this would squash the skull and the blood would more than likely flow out either side of the head or pool behind it and not spray in an upward direction covering the assailant. If it were a shotgun blast to the head, for example, blood and brain matter would travel in all directions. She was lying motionless as well, we assume.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 557 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    I'm not saying they had to be covered, just having any amount of blood on them should have the potential to drip blood. Have you ever seen/had a nose bleed for example, usually not a much blood, but even that can be very messy to deal with.

    The block was at the end of the encounter, there was movement by at least one party before and after that occurred. There was blood in at least 6 (probably more?) locations, with many having multiple samples of blood left there. That could be a total of dozens of spots of blood, not even including those on her body. It's unlikely that Sophie was the only source of all the blood transfers, and the killer was clean imo.

    The fact that the blood stops in the immediate outside of the gate, and we know the killer left the scene, indicates that something stopped the blood from dripping once the killer left, i.e. inside a car, or an in situ clean up (which is less likely imo).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 962 ✭✭✭flanna01


    But lifting the block up and down again would leave blood droplets scattered everywhere - No?

    Including on the killer.

    But why would the killer return to the door?

    The blood droplets found on the grass verge could have come from the killer going back to the door?

    All we can be certain of, is that the door was either pushed to (closed), or attempted to be opened after the assault had taken place, both are strange actions to take considering the circumstances.

    In all probability, the murderer drove there in a vehicle, opened the gate (to drive the car in). Sophie put her shoes on and freely walked down to the gate were an altercation taken place..

    The murderer was not equipped for a murder, hence used what was available on-site at the time (in this case - a concrete block).

    This whole case points towards a sudden moment of uncontrollable anger, an anger driven by fear of being outed??

    What would cause a rational man to fear something so much as to kill the person threatening him?

    A opportunist house breaker..? Typically never.

    A rejected sexual advance..? Not impossible, but highly unlikely. You would have to have an emotional attachment to resort to such measures?? Cold calling at the door looking for the ride must have a practically zero success rate I would imagine?

    Neighbour disagreement..? Quite possible in normal circumstances.. But considering Sophie was around for maybe 3 weeks of the year, would you really be bothered, probably not.

    Peeping Tom..? By nature, a Peeping Tom would be socially awkward and lacking in self confidence. Sophie was known to leave her curtains open and maybe could have been spotted in a case of undress..? Did she confront a local pervert, threaten to shame him, prosecute him, make him the laughing stock of the peninsula..?

    Quite possible - But would a Peeping Tom drive down to his victims residence, and even open up the gate to get a better view…? Possible but unlikely.

    We have very little that ticks every box.. I still feel the murderer was known to Sophie, and the killer purposely drove to the area (not necessarily to meet Sophie). I believe murder was not the killers intention upon arrival at Sophie's / Alfie's passageway.

    Alas, I dont think Sophie will ever get justice for the cutting short of her young life. The passage of time has dimmed the horrific nature of her brutal murder. Most of the actors around at the time have either moved on or died, leaving only people who don't want to be reminded of their local history, or the many opportunists looking to make a quick buck out of the whole sordid business.

    Once Bailey died, so did a lot of the interest in the case. There was no longer a scapegoat to hunt down and condemn.

    With the last flurry of podcasts and documentaries, the case will eventually be disregarded and resigned to a dusty box in the backroom of an outdated Garda station somewhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 127 ✭✭newuser...


    "With the last flurry of podcasts and documentaries, the case will eventually be disregarded and resigned to a dusty box in the backroom of an outdated Garda station somewhere."

    I would imagine the case will be in a box in the offices of the CCR team not an outdated Garda station



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 962 ✭✭✭flanna01


    You think differently….?

    Please elaborate……



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 127 ✭✭newuser...


    Theres no reason why the case will be disregarded or the files will be kept in a backroom of an outdated GS

    Self explanatory unless you can show otherwise , youre just waffling



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,289 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    “The fact that the blood stops in the immediate outside of the gate, and we know the killer left the scene, indicates that something stopped the blood from dripping once the killer left, i.e. inside a car, or an in situ clean up (which is less likelyimo).”

    The dripping blood most likely came from the weapons, the stone and block when raised. That’s not to say the killer had no blood on them. The area was awash with blood, but a lot of that blood would have been shed after the attacker left.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,859 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    It has always seemed very clear to me that the attacker must have got blood on their shoes. There was so much on the ground, he couldn't have avoided stepping in it. I presume this was what Gardaí were searching for when they sifted through the ashes of Ian Bailey's bonfire and found eyelets.

    But did they test the soles of every item of footwear owned by every man known to Sophie or who lived in the area?

    Did they test the footwell of every vehicle? The killer travelled by car, most probably. And it's very hard to remove bloodstain.

    It's an easy test, too - simple chemistry-set level.

    But did the Guards do so? This doesn't seem to be in the public record at all!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "something stopped the blood from dripping once the killer left, i.e. inside a car.."

    Based on what you have theorized in the past, you have to believe that before he ever got into a car the killer went up to the house after the killing and either closed or tried to open the side door depositing only one drop of blood in the field in front of the house and a blood smudge around the door handle. Minimal blood drip on that route suggests there clearly wasn`t much blood dripping from the killer after the murder. That is of course if the killer took a stroll up to the house at all.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 557 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Not necessarily, he could have got in the car to clean up, but I imagine it would be hard to be meticulous. I openly admit it's speculation here. I would see one of three scenarios in this situation:

    1. Killer goes to the house after Sophie gets knocked out/trapped in the briars, then comes back down and kills her with the block. There wasn't so much blood on them at this point, most of the blood comes after the final blows(s)
    2. Killer goes to car, cleans up a fair bit, but isn't totally meticulous, perhaps taking off jacket, shoes & gloves etc, but still has same clothes, then goes to house
    3. Killer punches/hits Sophie at house, closes door, then chases her to gate, she bleeds a little on the way down. (I think this is the Garda proposal)

    A car would be used in any of the three, I still think no.1 is most likely, but none could be ruled out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 557 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    The thing is I don't think the killer was wandering around with the blocks/stones, just using them and dropping them. In addition the gate blood was left by someone's hands, not a weapon, so there was loads of blood. Sophie could have left the blood on the gate, but it could also be left by the killer, which would mean their arms & hands were covered in blood.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,289 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    ….

    Post edited by chooseusername on


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,830 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    CCR seems to be going well with "A report is expected by the three-year anniversary of its beginning in June."

    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sophie-toscan-du-plantier-cold-case-review-is-going-well-as-it-nears-three-year-mark-says-senior-garda/a781387373.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,859 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    Well well well!

    That's exactly how senior detectives talk. Dead-pan face and give nothing away.

    I would say that sounds promising, rather than suggestive of "nothing to see here".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,218 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    Apparently they have clocked up some air miles in terms of interviewing people- I hope this is a sign that they have genuinely treated this as a cold case review and expanded their investigation beyond “getting Bailey”


    Either that or, “since we’ve looked everywhere and found nothing, then it must be Bailey” .

    I certainly hope at least some summary of what they have been doing these last years will be published- Sophie’s family and indeed the public deserve that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 557 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    What is he talking about phone extractions? I presume from the modern day, texts, phone calls etc. (Bailey, or anyone else), or is he referring to back at the time of the case somehow?

    It all sounds promising, but a concern I have is that it is all just leading to "a report" in June, that would indicate nothing is going to the DPP, or they would surely say "a file will be passed to the DPP in June". If it's just a report, I fear that it will be the same old crap repackaged in a different way.

    Also he mentions that the investigation continues, in parallel to the cold case review. The original investigation just looked at Bailey, and petered out majorly, why is it kicked back into gear in parallel? Seems like there would be lots of conflict of interest there but I guess we'll have to wait and see. I expect they're just trying to cover their asses.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭tibruit


    Jim Sheridan`s movie and the CCR report, all coming in June. That should be interesting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭saabsaab




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,424 ✭✭✭nc6000


    Oh, I didn't know he was making a movie and it was due in June. I thought it was maybe another series.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 191 ✭✭Mackinac


    The killer could have arrived by car, not to meet anyone but maybe to collect something, possibly from the pumphouse. Sophie, up early, spots the car down by the gate and headed down to investigate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Storage for drug stash in pumphouse? Pick up pre Christmas and New Year?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,859 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    It's possible - as in, it's as possible as any other theory.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,340 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    It's unlikely that professional drug traffickers would store there merchandise in such a manner.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭saabsaab




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,289 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    But a pumphouse that you would have to lift the roof off to deposit and retrieve your merchandise?

    Down the end of a long cul de sac in full view of the three houses there?

    Alfie Lyons would have to involved, either actively or passively, and he knew Sophie was there that weekend, so no,

    I don't buy it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Its unlikely, I agree, but it would be a good hiding place insofar as the house was unnoccupied most of the time, as was the Richardsons house, so only Lyon's property overlooked the site and, remember, Alfie had a history with the old waccy baccy. Also, if the Gardai found the drugs in the pumphouse, it would'nt be as incriminating as it would be if the discovery was made on Alfie or Leo's place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,836 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    I wouldn't be too sure the pumphouse is in full view of the three houses. Vegetation and topography could obscure it from view.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,218 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    But people approaching the house would be, at some point



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Yes, but bear in mind that, for most of the year, only Alfie and Shirley would be around to see anything…………….



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