Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

shimmieandshake · 13-03-2025 02:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123260772#Comment_123260772

I agree that the contract was too much, too soon, but I think dropping him will still have an impact. They don't just play for contracts, they play for joy/pride/status amongst their teammates. Being benched should be enough to make him more keenly address the discipline issue.

awec · 13-03-2025 02:56PM

They had pretty much 3 options for how to approach the 10 situation this 6N:

Back the Prendergast horse
Back the Crowley horse
Switch them out based on need and performance week-to-week.

Quite clearly, they went for option 1. Prendergast was backed, even after some iffy performances. I agreed with this approach, I think the idea that you can somehow share the position and grow two players simultaneously is nice and all but very difficult to do in reality.

However they have now decided, after 4 games, to switch it around. There is no chance whatsoever this is pre-meditated, the idea that they agreed in advance that Crowley would get the last game is obvious nonsense.

It is absolutely reactionary, the only real discussion is what triggered this reaction. If the trigger is the form of Prendergast then I am concerned, because it would imply that our coaching team are slow learners. If they were worried about protecting Prendergast or worried about his abilities then the time to drop him was after Wales.

If the trigger for the change was something else, say for example an indirect nudge to Crowley that this is what he'd be giving up if he takes the cash, that also concerns me.

Ireland could put on an exhibition this weekend, Crowley could lead us to a big win. But what will Crowley gain from that? It's pretty much a dead rubber game against the worst team in the competition, the amount of influence this game can have in moving the needle on the situation at 10 is very minimal.

In fact, I would have said that given they've backed him for the first 4 games, that it would have been far more valuable to give Prendergast the opportunity against Italy to pick himself off the floor after France.

Instead what it feels like is they're giving Crowley a token run out in a dead rubber to try keep him happy. Suddenly he can start now that Ireland are out of contention.

The whole thing feels a bit messy now.

MangleBadger · 13-03-2025 03:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261123#Comment_123261123

Agree mostly with all of this. It's almost a no win situation.

If Jack has a fantastic game it will for some support prove the point that Jack should be the starting 10. But that can be caveated with it is only Italy.

This was probably also the game with the best chance for Sam to show his talents with what you hope is a dominant pack.

If he has a shocker than it reinforces the choice to select Sam. But who wants Jack to have a shocker?

Best case scenario is Jack has a great game. Sam is given 30 minutes and also has a fantastic game.

I'm feeling a bit flat about this game. Even though Jack is starting I don't really think anybody is happy with how we got here.

AbusesToilets · 13-03-2025 03:09PM

There's no objective evaluation that points to Prendergast being so poor as to warrant dropping. He functioned well as a cog in an underperforming attack. He wasn't at fault for scores against, despite what certain posters might claim.

A knee jerk switch to Crowley to me shows that the management are focusing on the wrong issues. Continuing with the centres who haven't delivered indicates that. If we're talking about players who deserved to be dropped, Aki would be one of the first names in the list. Try aside, he was very poor against England, and hasn't done much of anything since. To not give McCloskey, Osborne, or Frawley any opportunities in the centres has been a massive missed opportunity.

Packrat · 13-03-2025 03:16PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261089#Comment_123261089

Well yes, ordinarily it would be a pretty bombastic thing to say, but the alternative is that they looked at his previous form and performances and decided that he was worth one.

That would actually be worse if true because it means that they haven't been paying attention for over 12 months.

No, I'm afraid Occams razor applies here, and the simplest answer is that the deciders are blinded by size/potential over mettle, brains and workrate.

JanuarySnowstor · 13-03-2025 03:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261123#Comment_123261123

Quite a few would disagree that Prendegast should have been handed all games in the 6N. Crowley is a country mile the better player!! Unbelievable the way some on here back Prendegast time and time again when he played poorly throughout the 6Nations. Crowley not only would have played better he would have walked into the Lions team!!

Folks it hard not to see a clear anti bias towards Crowley. Maybe it's a Munster thing not sure, either way Cork and Limerick folk won't listen to it

redmca2 · 13-03-2025 03:35PM

Speaking of the OH debate, have either much chance of making the Lions squad?

Doubtful in my opinion, barring injuries to other candidates.

CalmaftertheGav · 13-03-2025 03:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261235#Comment_123261235

Sam Prendergast- definetly makes it

Jack Crowley - Probably not

TomsOnTheRoof · 13-03-2025 04:25PM

Our attacking stats are pretty awful going by the Provincial State of Mind podcast. Only 3% of our offloads lead to a try or a line break. That's the worst of any team in the tournament. Wales are the next worst and they are sitting on 13% leading to a try or linebreak. We have the second lowest numbers for tackle evasion (carriers getting around a tackler) with 18% and second lowest again for line breaks leading to a score with 30% (only Wales are worse).

We also have the second lowest completion rate for lineouts despite throwing 15% more to the front than any other team (61% to the front overall). Our scrum too has the second lowest completion rate and we have the highest number of scrums lost by a penalty (8%) and the lowest number of scrums won resulting in a penalty for us (also 8%).

I don't know about anyone else but to me we're starting to look like a poorly coached team. It's been widely acknowledged that we have been moving more towards an off the ball style which may explain our poor attacking stats but you'd have to question the rationale of any such move considering how poor our set piece is. Between this and the selection fiasco you'd really have to question what the management team are at.

phog · 13-03-2025 04:32PM

I was just thinking had we any player that we could consider to be close to winning Player of the Tournament. No one has really stood out and maybe some of that is as mentioned above that we've moved to an off the ball type game but our discipline is gone to pot too. We just seem to be a bit below par that you'd expect from Ireland

VayNiice · 13-03-2025 04:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123260490#Comment_123260490

Do you not realise the contradiction in what you're saying??

sprucemoose · 13-03-2025 04:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123260735#Comment_123260735

youre sort of both right and wrong in that though, its correct technically to say that players werent 'officially' giving up player for ireland if they moved abroad, as there has never been any sort of official policy around selection of overseas players. i would say by the time JS went to France it was somewhat of an unwritten rule (as it is now), but he was seen as seen as too important to the irish team to leave out. he was never 'told he would no longer be eligible' though, he just wanted out of racing according to his book - a player of his importance at the time would realistically have been allowed to keep playing wherever he wanted

almostover · 13-03-2025 04:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261406#Comment_123261406

Gibson-Park was in the running after the first 3 games, if he has a stormer vs. Italy he'll be back in the mix. Doris has been very good in all games without being in player to the tournament territory. After that it's slim pickings.

almostover · 13-03-2025 04:57PM

I doubt it, more likely that neither will go unless called up due to injury.

I think the Lions will bring the 2 Finns, Russell and Smith, plus Marcus Smith and Blair Kinghorn as 10/15 utility players.

Fin Smith has probably been the best outhalf across the 4 nations so far and yet he's hardly a world beater. Most likely Russell will be the 1st choice despite a poor 6N. If I was Jack Crowley I'd be fuming. Crowley looked the better outhalf of the 2 in the Munster v Northampton game in January and now he's way off Lions selection whereas Fin Smith is in pole position to go on tour.

AbusesToilets · 13-03-2025 04:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261382#Comment_123261382

I don't think Farrell is ruthless enough to cut sling with poor coaches. POC should've been fired after the WC, our lineiyt contributed significantly to our loss imo. Likewise Goodman has shown nothing to suggest he's worth retaining. I was very critical of Catt after his first season, and obviously we came good, but I don't have confidence that Goodman will deliver. Leinster were poor under him.

ersatz · 13-03-2025 04:59PM

Lots more conspiracy theories today. How about a more prosaic explanation, the intention was to give Crowley a decent amount of time at ten off the bench during the 6N and, other than one game, injuries and cards made that impractical so they are giving him a start against Italy. The idea is to develop two viable tens and they've been using last season, this seasons and probably next season to do that. Steady as she goes, the plan is working. Performances have been so so though, which has had very little to do with ten. We are copping nearly a card per game, down from a card every 9 games. Our 22 entries are not scoring points at anything like the rate they were and by almost every measure our performances have declined significantly from where we were at 2 years ago. There are big problems with the team but managing our two developing tens are not in the to 5 of those problems. Storm in a teacup.

Former Former Former · 13-03-2025 05:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261474#Comment_123261474

Absolutely. If we had two players of similar quality and age as Crowley and Prendergast in every position, things would be very rosy.

Water John · 13-03-2025 05:03PM

They should for this year, have rotated Prendergast and Crowley. If P was starting some games, C would start others. Then when knowing the challenge defensively France would pose, C would be the starting choice for that match.

AbusesToilets · 13-03-2025 05:19PM

I think they took the right approach in starting Prendergast, he was playing better, and he's done well overall. What screwed things up was insisting on a 6-2 split. It practically committed Crowley to having to play out of position

Podge_irl · 13-03-2025 05:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261492#Comment_123261492

We didn't lose the French game cause of SP's defence though. It was, to all intents and purposes, entirely lost up front.

almostover · 13-03-2025 05:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261474#Comment_123261474

That's rubbish. Crowley has only played 20 mins at 10 in the tournament so far as a sub against England.

Crowley came on for Nash against Scotland for 15mins and played at 15 with Keenan moving to the wing. He came on for Mack Hansen with 7 minutes left against Wales, again playing 15. In both of those games we had a centre (Ringrose & Aki) in the 23 shirt meaning Crowley was selected as utility sub. Crowley got 24 mins against France at 12, as a replacement for Aki. Again, we chose a 6-2 split and Crowley was never going to play 10 as a result. In those 3 games Prendergast played 80 mins. Given the bench selection for the 23 shirt it doesn't appear if Crowley was selected as replacement no.10 for any of those games. He was picked as utility cover.

His selection at 10 this weekend smacks of desperation to keep him placated. And again we have persisted with picking a single position player in the 23 shirt. This time to Jamie Osborne's detriment.

The selection calls have been very poor. It's hard to argue with facts.

awec · 13-03-2025 05:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261474#Comment_123261474

This explanation also makes no real sense. They wanted to give Crowley decent game time off the bench? Why off the bench? Surely they know, as everyone here knows, planning to give game time based on sitting on the bench is a total lottery.

Especially when we do things like picking 6 forwards on the bench, or picking players who can ONLY play centre at 23. They wanted to give Crowley game time but then made decisions that would make it difficult to give Crowley game time? Not sure I can buy that.

If Ireland really wanted Crowley exposed to game time this 6N he would have started one of the previous 4 games. There are too many mental gymnastics required to suggest otherwise.

The problems are not mutually exclusive. We are playing poorly but this doesn't mean that Crowley suddenly starting when we're out of contention isn't a bit weird.

ersatz · 13-03-2025 05:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261492#Comment_123261492

Missing our two wingers and Ringrose, along with Furlong, mean that if France were firing on all cylinders we were in big trouble. Joe Mc brain fart didn't helped but it was further evidence that the cards we are getting are coming from pressure, stress and fatigue that we are not handling as well as we did up until recently. Ten had very little to do with it. France played their best game of the tournament against us and their earlier performances were quality too. That is the situation Ireland are now in, every top team is going to be absolutely on point against us and it's killing us in the biggest games.

Podge_irl · 13-03-2025 05:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261560#Comment_123261560

One thing we should all remember, is that we have always rotated against Italy. That element of things is not remotely unique.

That being said, I agree things have been handled poorly. I don't know what exactly we are looking to try to do with our subs. I think the 6-2 was a giant waste of time, I think holding onto backs on the bench "just in case" is an exercise in timidity. I don't think there is anything wrong with Crowley being viewed as utility cover mind you, it's not a bad place to be in a squad.

I don't remotely understand the 23 selection, Osborne is an infinitely better selection than Aki. Ireland have been obsessed with having a centre in that jersey for years though, and I have never understood it.

AbusesToilets · 13-03-2025 05:38PM

Osborne is arguably a better center anyway, ridiculous decision imo

awec · 13-03-2025 05:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261577#Comment_123261577

The Aki / Henshaw / Ringrose rotation is nonsensical to me, especially this week. There's a lad in the squad who plays 3 positions in the backs and was trusted to start last week against the best team in the tournament, yet he can't get past a guy who, as good as he is, plays only one position.

We'd rather reshuffle our entire backline in the case of injury than play Osborne again. I do not understand it.

I wasn't impressed with Osborne on the wing but I'd take Osborne on the wing any day over Ringrose ffs. If anything, last week showed that Ireland cannot afford to lose Ringrose from the centre.

Former Former Former · 13-03-2025 05:46PM

The 6-2 against France was very possibly a reflection of the injury that Doris was carrying and maybe also the 7-1 that we knew France were going with.

ersatz · 13-03-2025 05:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261565#Comment_123261565

Maybe the coaches want two tens who can play at the top level all the time, like other top teams have? I am amazed that people who play close attention to the game and to Ireland are crying about a situation where Crowley got all the games in the last 6N and Predergast got a serious run this year, its EXACTLY what people on here have been asking the coaches to do for YEARS. Of course there's a risk that Crowley won't get to play much ten off the bench because its subject to injury and cards, luckily he can play 15 so he can bench as the 23 rather than having to have a dedicated ten sub, which is one of the few weaknesses with Predergast currently (beyond him needing to improve as a player and organiser). Crowley got a full 6N run last year, he is developing really, really well but, like Prendergast there are things he can improve. We now have 2 tens who I'd be happy with going to the WC with in 2 years time, and they will be even more experienced when the time comes. We are in a position to play one all the time with the other as a backup or to rotate as needs must. Crowley can also play 15 to a high level, I really don't see where the problem is.

Ardillaun · 13-03-2025 06:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123259343#Comment_123259343

He’d be a fairly pedestrian 15.

Former Former Former · 13-03-2025 06:03PM

When Crowley starts on Saturday, he’ll increase his number of starts in the 6N by 20%.

He’s still a young and developing OH and I think that’s been lost in these discussions. He needs games. The idea that there’s nothing to be gained by playing him against a very decent Italy team is a bit odd to be honest.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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