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Walrus Returns... Again!

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Interesting summary! I was struggling for something for this category so I went cynical (one of few to do so, as you say). I think you're right to place the song in context though - 1971, four years after the summer of love, and written by Townshend when he was 25. Always amazes me just how young some of the most influential musicians since the 50s were when at their peak - Buddy Holly (dead at 22), Eddie Cochran (dead at 21), the Beatles, even a baby-faced 21-year-old Ozzy Osborne belting out Paranoid as their first song in the charts.

    I'm also never sure whether to go with better-known songs or lesser ones on these. Does familiarity work or breed contempt? Is what's familiar to one person new to another (it's interesting to see the reaction to a Maiden and The Who submission) Or is it better to take a chance and introduce something completely left-field from your own musical collection?

    My next two submissions go down the latter route I think, so maybe we'll find out… :p



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,145 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    Hi guys,

    Was hoping to finish Round Three on Friday/Saturday, but we took a battering on the West Coast and have had no power/WiFi since Thursday night/Friday - we really got some doing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,145 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    Guys, guys, guys….. We are back.

    And I promise you, we're going to be here every day from now with something until this Walrus is done: provided there's no more hurricane force winds and after effects that temporarily force some of us back into the 1950's…. maybe I shouldn't even joke about this….

    Anyway, where was I?

    (clears throat)

    In Fourth Place with Eleven Points is StrawbsM with Messy By Lola Young.

    I like this tune a lot, even if some of it sounds a bit familiar, maybe even kind of musically - if not quite derivative - then heavily reminiscent of other songs. The bass at the start does sound exactly like Every Breath You Take... come on, it really does, to the extent I wonder if they are actually sampling it.... sure, look, let's call it a homage and move on. And while I do like the chorus, sort of, maybe it gets aired too often and thoroughly, to the point where it bores me a little: it's strident alright, but not all that musically arresting. It's a bit predictable, considering how surprising other aspects of the song are.


    So, why after all that pooh-poohing am I putting it so high.... I dunno, well, no, that's a lie: I do know.

    It's very real in a couple of ways. She's a very engaging storyteller and the whole thing lyrically flows like a series of painfully identifiable moments from a frazzled life that we call emphasise with. And I feel for her, but I also kinda feel for her other half. I don't know if she's right or maybe she isn't. It all sounds a bit, well, messy. I think that gives it a multifaceted quality that elevates it beyond the usual kiss-off to an ex type of anthems you hear all the time everywhere everyday. You can interpret every line as being directed inward at her herself, as well as outward: listen to the very last line, the self recrimination is positively dripping off it.

    It leaves me in a place where I don't know how to feel about it. A little of the old multivalence. And I enjoy music that leaves me feeling lost and confused.             



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 91,018 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    That Messy song is so catchy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,145 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    In Third Place with Twelve Points is jluv with You Have Been Loved (Live) by George Michael.




    I like George Michael. I'm not hugely familiar with his music - beyond the big hits, which, admittedly, he did have a lot of - and the occasional deeper cut which I come across. I like him as an individual. He was his own man and seemed like a genuine guy, a deep soul. I always think back to an interview that I've seen on Youtube of him and Morrissey being interviewed together on some 80's music show on the TV and they're talking about Joy Division. Morrissey is all posing and posturing and kind of has nothing perceptive to say whatsoever about the band, whereas George - in his feathered haired pomp -  starts talking about the music in a way that makes you realise he's actually tried to engage and be emotionally moved by it. He comes across as a more intelligent and less stuck up guy than Morrisey. And in all the other clips and bits I've seen of him, I just like his vibe. George was a real one.  


    This is a devastating song. Musically, very classy, pure adult contemporary, but the music is really just adornment around the sentiments and the lyrics. There's an unbelievable amount of pain in this song, but it's not histrionic - it's restrained, even resigned, which gives it a thoughtfulness that you have to meet on its own terms. In a nutshell it's George thinking about the life of the mother of his dead lover - but it's about a lot more too. It's about the struggle of love - the things she would have had to do to raise a child, seemingly without a lot of help - how much she loved him. And now how, despite all her faith, hope, and prayers the child she loved is dead.

    The amount of compassion and generosity of spirit is off the charts. And it's deep in a way that stops you short and makes you think: can faith still exist after the death of a child? What guilt should a survivor of a bereavement have? Some of the imagery sticks fast in my mind: "So, these days, my life has changed/ And I'll be fine (And I'll be fine)/ But she just sits and counts the hours/ Searching for her crime" - there's a lack of resolution that speaks to the lack of closure and messiness of life. I have to put this one up near the top because it's a guy putting his soul up on a plate and admitting that he's a flawed individual - "If I was weak, forgive me/ But I was terrified" and that looking at the impossibility of faith, as he sees it, and instead of seeing it as inspiration, he still just sees how that impossibility remains in his mind; but with compassion and not scorn. And that's some deep stuff.   
             



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,031 ✭✭✭SineadSpears


    I like that messy song but I hadn't paid attention to the lyrics other that the chorus. I'll have a proper listen later..

    There's something comforting about being around someone who understands your need for silence & space. You don't have to fill the air with words or explanations, they just get it..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,031 ✭✭✭SineadSpears


    Which category are we on now @Arghus - Bitter?

    There's something comforting about being around someone who understands your need for silence & space. You don't have to fill the air with words or explanations, they just get it..



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    No - the third one. Scorn Not His Sincerity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,605 ✭✭✭nachouser


    Yeah, the Messy song is really good. You can switch on subtitles to get the lyrics. The editing in that really grim room is excellent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,145 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    In Thirteenth place with Two Points is Necro with From Now On by Hugh Jackman (The Greatest Showman OST)

     


    I love music. I also, equally, love films. But, here's the thing - put the two together to form a musical and, by and large, I hate it. I can't think of a single musical out there I actually thoroughly like, aside from, maybe, Little Shop of Horrors - but even then, I kinda hate the song parts of it. There's just something whenever some randomer decides to start bursting out in song on screen when they're walking down the street, or doing something entirely normal like walking the dog or eating peas that destroys my suspension of disbelief and makes me want to check with immediate haste out of the experience. Musicals do absolutely nothing for me.


    So, while I did try my best to give this song a fair shake as a piece of music in its own right, at some basic fundamental level I just couldn't approve of it: whatever way you listen to it it still sounds like a song from a musical. Which might be a ringing endorsement to many people, but, it's a definite and hard no thank you from me.


    It does start kind of low-key, which was alright, even if I can already tell what kind of road we're going to be travelling on by the precise diction of Hugh Jackman's singing, then it just gets going and by the time I hear that fcking banjo come in I have already decided that I hate this song.


    So it loses me at exactly 2:40. It goes on for another three minutes after that.

    It gets bigger and bigger. And bigger again. Hugh, in fairness, to him, does his best amidst the racket. He's got a nice, if kind of also somehow bland, attention commanding sort of voice - even if maybe he doesn't have all the power that perhaps the song truly requires in the vocal department. But it gets lost for me with the massed chorus vocals, stomping rhythms and lots of huge but essentially meaningless sounding aspirations: come back home, start again, from now on, eyes, blinded, lights.... whatever, who cares.

    I always think musical showstoppers like this sound so fake: I never buy that there's actual emotion and human feeling in there that came at one point from a person out there in the world. They have no resonance for me.


    But, that is just me. Loads of people love this musical and this song especially to boot. And Necro, man, that was heartfelt and I'm not shtting on your appreciation of it: I'm glad you love it for the reasons you said. I am not made of stone. But, when it comes to my own feelings on this song, maybe my ears are made of tin.

    Post edited by Arghus on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,570 ✭✭✭Declan A Walsh


    I love that review! It sums up how I feel about musicals. The only exceptions are going to see a musical on Broadway in New York City because that is a different type of experience, and Tommy because it is almost a rock music performance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,784 ✭✭✭Mollyb60


    Aww man, I'm 100% with Necro on this one. I love musicals. And the Greatest Showman is an excellent show (based on a sh1tty man but whatever) with excellent songs.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 6,897 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Aris


    Yeah, also a big fan of The Greatest Showman, though From Now On wouldn't be top of my list.

    But The Greatest Show, The Other Side and This Is Me are on heavy rotation in my playlists.

    2025 gigs: Selofan, Alison Moyet, Wardruna, Gavin Friday, Orla Gartland, The Courettes, Nine Inch Nails, Rhiannon Giddens, New Purple Celebration, Nova Twins



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,031 ✭✭✭SineadSpears


    Another one that doesn't normally like Musicals. However, the Greatest Showman has some great songs & I'd have no problem watching it again.

    No interest in the rest though (Sound of Music, Mamma Mia etc..)

    Post edited by SineadSpears on

    There's something comforting about being around someone who understands your need for silence & space. You don't have to fill the air with words or explanations, they just get it..



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 56,211 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    I expected that - but the reason I submitted it in this category is cos in the last panto before my dad died (actually about a week prior almost exactly), this was the finale and encore song we performed.

    Watching it back on DVD a few months later I realised it was actually filmed the night he attended so instead of watching my own show I watch it back now to see the back of his head and his reactions to the last show of mine he got to see. 😃

    More of a… sentimental choice than a song I particularly love tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,145 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    In Second Place with Thirteen Points is JP LIZ V1 with Hurt by Johnny Cash.

    I appreciate Nine Inch Nails, I've bought tickets to see them in a few months. I think The Downward Spiral is one of the best produced albums of all time: there's such imagination and endless details in all of the songs. But, I have to say, I've always thought Hurt was a bit crap really. A totally underwhelming closer to a classic album.

    The whole stripped back quality of the original didn't work for me. I prefer NIN when they have interesting stuff going on in their tunes in terms of arrangement and production, which they almost always have. I've never really bought them thoroughly in terms of being a truly resonant act, lyrically they - or, to be more precise, he - can be a bit too blunt for me: it can all feel a bit put-on and overwrought. And the original Hurt is probably their most over-egged in those respects: I've never been able to take it seriously. It's just too gloomy, almost laughably so.


    But, I guess that's the genius of cover versions sometimes. They bring something out into the open from the DNA of the song. In the hands of a multi-millionaire woe is me rockstar, I just think it's kitsch and childish. In the hands of a weakened impossibly aged sounding personification of gravitas, it sounds like every line of it is being read off stone tablets.

    On the face of it it's a bit obvious: get near death legend, famous for his once rough and rowdy ways, to croak through this gen-x musical classic ur-text of misery, slow it down and make it sparse and you'll have a winner! And, yes, I hate being played by something so obvious: this tune, this arrangement. the voice: it's all precisely, even knowingly designed to emotionally floor you. It's not surprising.


    But, hey, it works. It really works. Now it all seems to make perfect sense that of course Johnny Cash would cover this, but it was a bit of a stroke of genius to do this at the time.

    It's impossible not to hear his voice, how frail it is, but still with the echo of the power and the swagger of the younger man in there too and not be brought into a bit of contemplation of the passing of time, the fading of youth and the perfect finality of death.... well, it's impossible for me anyway, but I could be sick in the head.

    And despite everything else: my mixed feelings about the original, the blatant way the song tries to pull at your emotional strings, there's still just a quality to Cash's presence and delivery in the song that gives it inarguable power.

    It's mythical, but, yet it's beyond real at the same time: life, death, the whole damn thing in three and a half minutes. Is it ultimately sincere? Who knows, but he sounds so sincere that the question is really basically academic. I feel that the song moves me in a way that I can't fully articulate. And that, is a plus.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭Bogey Lowenstein
    That must be Nigel with the brie...


    I think the song Hurt is great on its own but if you watch it with the video it is a whole nother level of pathos.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,784 ✭✭✭Mollyb60


    Don't come at me with Jeff Buckley or the Byrds but I think this may be the greatest cover version of a song ever.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,145 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    And there were two… Rikand & Irish Aris. Those who are last will be first.

    And the one next to last will be last.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,145 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    In Fourteenth Place with One Point is Rikand with Wasn't Expecting That by Jamie Lawson.


    I'll confess to having heard this song about, what feels like, an infinite amount of times on the radio, without ever really listening to it properly. I always thought it was by Ed Sheeran.


    Well, now I've really listened to it and I can say that I like nothing about it. The only moment that really grabbed me was when I realised that - with complete bemusement - that...wait, what? There's a death at the end of the song?


    And that kind of underlined the problem I have with the song. Look, it is sincere, or at least is trying to be, but, Jesus, I found it to be such mawkish stuff. It's a song that references all the ups and downs of a human life, but makes them sound as pedestrian as putting on your socks in the morning.


    His voice annoys me: it's so bland, sanded off and devoid of any deviation of emotion: he could be singing about buttering bread, changing a tire, or burying a child... it's the same vocal melody all the time, delivered with as much feeling as a frost-bitten foot. Why does every single couplet have to end with the refrain of "Wasn't Expecting That" - is he trying to torture us?

    I don't want to keep banging on and more power to you if you love it, but absolutely not for me. I hated this song.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,145 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    In First Place with Fourteen Points is Irish Aris with Lazarus by David Bowie.   


    As soon as the entries started coming in I sorta had a feeling that this would take some beating to be knocked off eventual top-spot for round three and, sure enough, yes, I can't look past Lazarus as top-dog for this category.


    I wouldn't say I'm a massive Bowie fan. He does have an incredible back catalogue, some of which I really love - Station to Station is just, awww, man - but in its totality I don't like every single part of his work. And I never went through a hero worship phase with Bowie.

    I knew people - still know people - who love/loved him. Aside from the music, they seemed to really love the idea of him: a chameleon, who was always a bit of an enigma. I never really fell in love with that. His distance, or irony, meant I could never fully identify at some level, truly heart and soul, with his music. So despite all of the amazing facets of his musical life, I wouldn't have put him in my personal pantheon of artists who meant a lot to me. 

    But, yet here he is top of the list of a round about sincerity.


    I remember being woken up by the (then) nearest and dearest on the morning in January 2016 when his death was announced. I thought they were having me on: "No, he released an album the day before yesterday... that can't be right?"....

    No, absolutely it was. And of course I was stunned by the news. Bowie was like this ageless figure who existed and persisted and seemed to always do his own thing outside of the norm. Normal physical rules like death didn't seem to necessarily be something he'd ever have to worry about, like it is for the rest of us plebs.

    But, no, he was dead, he was mortal... wow, wild.

    Even more wild was the fact that he'd released an album all about death just right before. Nothing in his life became him like leaving it. Beyond the surprise of his death, I found myself by being pretty awestruck at the panache, the sheer balls, to put something out there like that into the public, all while being desperately ill and knowing that it would only sink in for people and achieve its full impact after death. 


    That to me was - and still is - completely mind blowing. And it was typically Bowie: it didn't move me in my heart, it was more like an intellectual admiration. In the end, I had to hand it to him - that thing that left me always a bit uninvolved by his schtick: that distance of it all, its own awareness somehow of it being a performance and he himself being a type of knowing media character; rather than being a blood and guts ordinary soul under it all - was the one thing that, in the very end, made Lazarus such an amazing piece of not just music, but of art.


    Take the lines of that first verse: Look up here, I'm in heaven/ I've got scars that can't be seen/ I've got drama, can't be stolen/ Everybody knows me now. Now we've had plenty of songs in this round looking death square in the face, but we haven't had any coming from the other side.

    Bowie knew the craic. He knew he was dying. He knew that most people would rush to this song in the immediate aftermath of this death and everything would suddenly acquire a whole different level of meaning. This guy is already talking to us from the beyond, he's already anticipating that, and he's also anticipating the debates and the media fervour that'll start spilling out after his death. Not many people get to such an exalted position where they can foresse their own passing into legend, just as it's about to happen. And to do it all in such a cold and dispassionate way - without any of the histrionics - cements how magisterial a final move this song was. Lazarus indeed.


    I think the real message in the song is Bowie grappling with the idea of his future of not being a living, breathing human being, but becoming an idea, a media fixture, something that from that point on will exist in memory and people's minds: with no fixed position on planet Earth - and I'll be free/ ain't that just like me. That line - ain't that just like me - is the one that always gets me. Bowie was famously unknowable and ever-changing and I read this line as Bowie saying you'll never know me, it's almost a taunt and this final Swan Song has left him with the final word: adding another layer of mystification to him and his legacy. That's the freedom, even in death: there's always going to be that mystery and he's knowingly adding to it here. That's next level stuff.


    I've barely even touched upon the musical content of the song itself. It has a menacing and melancholy mood, but Bowie himself, vocally, never seems to be saddened or looking for sympathy. He's not trying to mine pathos. His voice does sound ghostly, but almost has this sanctity about it because of that. That final vibrato on his final line is awesome. I think it's a song with great textures. The hot and the cold mixed together very well. The cold: the gothic stabs of guitar, the melevont bed of organs, the icy keyboards. The hot: the really fat sounding drums, the melodic bass and sax. The song is so darkly atmospheric. And I adore how we get the emotional climax of the sax solo - with the deft interplay between drums and bass - before the song winds down gradually with the sounds of those filamental instrumental strings echoing out creepily - going out like the sparks from a fire being extinguished in the dark. 



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 6,897 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Aris


    Thank you for this superb analysis, Arghus.

    2016 was a tough year, as 3 musicians that I admired and loved a lot of their music, passed away: David Bowie, Prince, George Michael.

    When Blackstar and Lazarus were released, I kind of felt that this might be the last new music that Bowie would release. Where Are We Now from his previous album The Next Day had an aura of nostalgia and looking back to his life in Berlin. In Blackstar the philosophical aspect is even more present. I never thought that it would mean his life would end: I knew of previous health issues that prevented him from touring, but the cancer diagnosis had been kept private.

    A truly fitting finale for a fascinating singer, songwriter and performer.

    2025 gigs: Selofan, Alison Moyet, Wardruna, Gavin Friday, Orla Gartland, The Courettes, Nine Inch Nails, Rhiannon Giddens, New Purple Celebration, Nova Twins



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,618 ✭✭✭✭Rikand




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    You might almost say you…weren't expecting that! 😃

    (Sorry…😱)

    Deserved number one call in fairness given the category; good shout there.

    Also, if Arghus might indulge in a scoreboard (with top two/bottom two marked) -

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,145 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    Great idea cdeb - thank you!

    Surprisingly tight up there at the top. Toight.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,605 ✭✭✭nachouser


    I hadn't heard Lazarus before but he literally nicked the bass from the song I submitted for the next round. The first 30 seconds is just slowed down Joy Division. Hooky wants his intro back:-)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,145 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    Let's get the show back on the road guys with Round Four. Was quite busy with work etc - was out foreign and all - but am back on Terra Firma for a while again now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,145 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    Anyway, let's go...

    Category Four - It's Cold Outside - And Inside Too.

    In Twelfth Place with Three Points is Rikand with Winter By Dt8 Project.

    I certainly didn't dislike this, even if it's quite low down in the running.

    It was just a simple matter of everything ahead of it aligning more closely with my taste or appealing to me with greater clarity: the standard in this round was quite high.

    Very trance, very European. Not maybe what I would associate readily with chilliness, as the whole thing sounds euphorically and blindingly bright. Even if the lyrics are all - on the surface - about the desolation and the darkness, your wan still belts it out like she's never felt more self-actualised in her life.

    But, she does have a great voice, majestic even. Her-to-the-nth degree power fits in with the song as a whole: super maximalist. We get a bit of everything, with the contrast set to really high: the twinkling keys, the orchestral backing, the tempo going at it ninety and above throughout. I do find it a bit of a fatiguing three minutes - but maybe it's a sign that I'm getting old. It's definitely a sign.

    I do like the way the lower bass rumbles and decays down there in the mix, particularly in the first half of the first verse. The chorus is a proper ear worm and I do find the siren-like, huge sounding synths that define that chorus to be pretty neat as well - so clear and bracing, like a face full of snow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,145 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    In Eleventh Place with Four Points is Irish Aris with Moscu Esta Helado by Esplendor Geometrico.


    I appreciated this, rather than actually liked it. I suppose it does conform to a chilly, minimalistic mode that befits the category. And I feel it's an opening vista into a musical world that I don't know much about, but that probably has some golden nuggets waiting in there to be found: 80's European Synth Wave. 


    And it seems to exist as a piece to make you ponder about the agitprop of it all: references to Moscow, audio clips of Soviet speeches, all wrapped up in forward looking sound from a country emerging from a right wing political dictatorship... hmmm, if I had a beard I would stroke it thoughtfully right now...


    But, it didn't really grab as a piece of music tbh. I suppose it's not really meant to - it's more a collection and juxtaposition of cool sounds. The bass line that runs through it throughout is undoubtedly pretty sick and I do like the synths that sound like sheets of metal being bashed around in the wind.

    If you vibe with it it's got a neat mantra like quality to it and, like I said, it's an interesting audio snapshot of a particular scene from a particular time and place… you can imagine impassioned people arguing fiercely, gesticulating wildly, about the fate of the world and what is to be done, in a basement club somewhere while this blares in the background  



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,145 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    In Tenth Place with Five Points is SineadSpears with Labour by Paris Paloma.


    It took a listen or two before I cottoned on that this was a multi-faceted partly first person narrative, but which also doubled as a tale of the patriarchy and its historical and continued crimes and I thought, hmm, that's clever.... but, did it genuinely move me emotionally? Perhaps not as much as intended.


    Maybe it's a problem of identification. Much as it pains me to admit it at times: I am a man. And even if I think I'm a relatively open minded person - I can't say that I got lost or swept up in the central message of the song.

    It's quite acerbic and I do admire how she's gone for a real widescreen view of everything: going from the details of her relationship, before eventually panning out and casting a cynical eye over all the shyte women have to put up with: and that's a lot of shyte, tbf.

    I believe her. But I didn't feel like I was really put in someone else's shoes in a way I hadn't been before - but that could be a reflection of the limits of my mind. Though i did find that line about "weaponizing false incompetence" being another form of dominance a very perceptive commentary on things.


    Musically, the song doesn't do loads for me. She's got a fairly good voice, but it's not arrestingly good. Sounds incredibly like Mitski at times - who I am a massive fan of-  but all that does is make me think I should listen to some Mitski again. I'm not a huge fan of its mid-paced acoustic-ness of this. Melodically,It's just not that interesting to me either and I think it doesn't really need that closing bridge, IMO, which kinda doesn't feel organically part of the rest of it I think - even if the harmonised vocals on the outro are pretty cool.


    But, to be fair, I think the song does show a lot of ambition - maybe not always landing the execution - and then there's definitely enough intellectual meat to chew on here… the musical content just didn't do a whole lot for me.



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