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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 843 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    Osborne had a much better performance than Bundee Aki who, like his centre partner, was largely anonymous.

    I swear people don't watch rugby on this forum.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    So Matt Williams' opinion equates to being 'castigated' by the media?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,862 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    If you think Osbourne did better than Bundee I'd guess you don't watch, or understand, the game.

    Osbourne was very poor but he tried really hard which he deserved kudos for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,053 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Aki is probably our second best back, JGP is ahead of him and Keenan is level or 3rd best.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 843 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    How was Osborne 'very poor'?

    Genuinely very interested to hear how you have come to this conclusion.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,862 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Lots of mistakes and running down blind alleys.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 843 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭crusd


    I did go back and listen and you are looking for offence in a reaction that encompassed the full team performance, and that was clear. Just because it didn't leave Crowley out of the criticism. you think it was all about him. Which is quite strange. And for the record Prendergast was widely criticised Saturday, just not with the "worst 10 ever to play in green" hyperbole which I think is the only reaction that would sate your blooodlust for a 22 year old

    And if posts on boards are your standard for rational analysis I have pity on you. And just because some idiots in the autumn spouted nonsense about a players performance does not automatically mean that another players performance should equally be judged unjustly because he is not "your player". They they did it so I am justified line of argument.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 296 ✭✭Kerry_2008


    I hope with the Lions etc this Summer that the coaching team are looking to introduce a lot of new talent. We are 2 years out from the world cup and 2 six nations tournaments.

    In all reality we are an ageing team and a substantial rebuild will need to begin this summer.

    Bedhlam, Beirne, Conan, Van der Flier, Furlong, Aki, Henshaw will be 33 or older by then. Furlong will be 34 but has a dreadful recent injury record. Not to mention Gibson Park will be 35 and Lowe 34.

    We looked a slow team on sat and none of the lads mentioned above are going to get any faster.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,862 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    I presume you are talking just about the France game? After I settled down I felt Keenan was our best back followed by a tie between JGP and Bundee.

    If you are talking about this year then JGP, Lowe and Aki are far and away the best ones.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 843 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    There is no planet where Bundee was better than Osborne on Saturday, lads.

    The fact nobody can list the "lots of mistakes" Osborne made is telling.

    Glaring two are the kick which Dupont claimed the mark on and being beaten once in the air.

    If that constitutes a 'very poor' performance then what are we really doing here?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭crusd


    Osbourne was decent, as a third centre and I would not be unhappy with him replacing Aki in the long run, but for me as a winger he doesn't have the instincts of a Hansen, Lowe or Nash (Or a Larmour, O'Brien or Daly for that matter)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,053 ✭✭✭✭phog


    No, I'm talking about Ireland in general, Lowe is very important to how we play but he has his weaknesses too, Aki is like a forward in defence and can challenge anyone in attack and JGP is probably the second best scrumhalf in the world.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Wasting your time asking for evidence. Empty, unsupported nonsense is the only game in town.

    For all the fretting about Osborne, he wasn't exposed for pace once during the game. He had a very solid game, in his 3rd/ 4th best position. He needs to be given time at 12 or 13, wasting his talents on the wing imo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,862 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Did you watch the match? Took too long to decide about things and made a mistake when Penaud came at him, an awful kick to Dupont not giving any time for somebody to get up the field, had an opportunity to pass but decided to keep running up a blind alley and got shoved out. There was loads more.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,862 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Ageism at its finest.

    I don't care what age a player is if he's the best we've got.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 843 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    That's it?

    'very poor' based on three mistakes? Two of which I already highlighted and the third being shoved out into touch?

    Holy moly he should never play for Ireland again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,862 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Did you not read the last line of my post. And I'm not going to type everything he did wrong. I just gave a couple of examples.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 843 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    This is fine. As I (and you) have pointed out, it doesn't mean he had a 'very poor' game.

    I think he showed a lot more on the wing than Nash did, though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 843 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    If you're going to make a claim that a player was 'very poor' because he made 'loads of mistakes' - then you better bring the evidence.

    Because the evidence suggests Osborne actually had a good game despite being out of position.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,434 ✭✭✭jprender


    ah in fairness Nash only found out he was playing right before the game.

    He wasn’t even in the 23 😁

    Talk about being thrown into a game 😂

    I’d say he was looking forward to having a few pints and watching the game like the rest of us 😂



  • Administrators Posts: 55,160 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Being better than Nash at the weekend is a very low bar. Indeed, it feels like we're trying to set the bar very low here so we can claim Osborne wasn't too bad.

    He wasn't terrible but he wasn't good either. He is clearly not a winger. He will get plenty of Ireland caps, but hopefully no more of them come on the wing.

    Nash is a winger, though the jury is very much still out on whether or not he's up to this level.

    I am fairly sure had Lowe been injured at the start of the week rather than in the warm up it would have been Stockdale starting on the left wing on Saturday.



  • Administrators Posts: 55,160 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    For every game there are a few players held in reserve, they will train all week as if they're in the team, they arrive to the match with the team, they get all kitted up, they warm up like they're going to play, they only get changed out of their kit after the warm up once there's been no injuries.

    Nash would have known he was one injury away from playing, it's not like he would have been plucked from his hotel room before the game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,434 ✭✭✭jprender


    that’s fair enough actually.

    They are professional players too, so however unlikely, they need to prepare as if they are going to play.

    Tough one to get right mentally though as it doesn’t happen very often.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,891 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Basically no one was "good". maybe Doris, though he seemed to get on the wrong side of the ref (unjustifiably so for my money).

    I don't like Osborne on the wing I have to say. One assumes he was there for his kicking game, but we didn't seem to be really getting our kicking game going either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30 Sportsmad5


    Did Declan Kidney handle the Out half situation better than Farrell/Easterby.

    When he took over in May 2008 Ronan O'Gara was the 10 in situ.

    In November 2009, when 24 Johnny Sexton made his debut against Fiji and kept his place v South Africa and broke his hand in that game. O'Gara started the first 6 Nations game, Sexton came on as sub. The next 3 games Sexton started and O'Gara came on as sub.

    Farrell brought Prendergast in at 21, if you are good enough, you are old enough, did the Irish Coaches had a duty to bring him along in the same manner as was done with Sexton ?

    I am trying to write this as a neutral, but question the selection and management decisions. both on and off the pitch. They must be the first international Managers to sent a player out to the media mid week and drop him for the week end.

    Did Andrew Porter need to play 250+ mins in the Autumn Series, did that help develop Props

    Did Doris need to play was it 42 consecutive internationals.

    We alternate 3 players between 12 + 13

    Did we need Healy & O'Mahony, I can understand Murray as Casey was out.

    Rather than spending so much time arguing Prendergast or Murray, should we be looking at the teams that are beeing selected and the succession policy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,053 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Nash was poor on Saturday, the whole team was. Nash also played all (?) the 6Ns last season and we won that so he's not as poor as some would portray or hope.

    Nash apparently carried an injury into training last week and he spent the full week as the opposition winger rather than training to be playing for Ireland, again, if this is true then it's poor management as anyone that is in the matchday 23+ should be doing Irish drills and just being opposition player or tackle bags.

    In saying that, he should have been better and might have let his chance slide as it seems those on the peripheral of the squad can drop off it a lot faster than those in the starting 15.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,862 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Give me the evidence he had a good game please.

    I've gave you three examples of bad play by him. I'm not going to sit here and type all his bad play. I already brought evidence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,104 ✭✭✭ersatz


    I'd give Nash a break on much of his performance, not sure he would have been running in any of the prep over last week, its a very tall order to come in cold on the wing against France. The card was on him but I wouldn't be holding his feet to the fire over much else given his prep.

    Poor show all around and then some poor fortune no to get over the line early on, though some of the decisions there lacked the kind of patience Ireland of a couple of years ago were so good at. I've no doubt we aren't the team we were for obvious reasons, but Saturday's team was sub optimal even for where we are at. Aki taking a bad knock early on, Rinigrose absent, Nash a very late call up compounding a very novice Osborne on the other wing. And French tactics absolutely spot on, plus their spirit and work rate was insane and pitch perfect for the full match.

    For me I wish Crowley had more time at ten, but it's been clear for a couple of years that he is not trusted fully by Farrell. That's been obvious since the 1/4 when he was left on the bench. He has been used at ten where there was no real alternative but once Prendergast was judged to be even nearly ready he was moved aside, for good or bad. That was Australia and since then they've nailed their colours to the mast with him. Fair enough, it's why a lot of us are often disappointed about when young players don't get promoted as quickly as they might. Longer term I hope it doesn't mean Crowley is no longer given opportunities there as he does have qualities that make him a better selection is some cases than Prendergast, though I don't think it would have changed the outcome on Saturday. France have better players and our game was off across the team at the weekend, tiny margins in some cases but enough to compound French advantages in personnel.

    Overall there are a few real alarm bells ringing for Ireland. Our bench is full of guys who are Leinster subs, its noones fault that the second or 3rd best in any position is behind their Leinster team mate so we are relying on guys who don't play much high level rugby. Our attack hasn't been great this tournament, even against weaker teams. We have never been a team to tear the opposition teams but we aren't getting bonus points at the rate we were, these are trends and they bode ill for the future. We need a big reset before the next WC which is happening one way or another due to a large number of players aging out. The next few years might be ugly.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 843 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    You brought three pieces of 'lots of evidence', all of which can be found in multiple articles. That's pathetic.

    I've posted my evidence numerous times. However, because you can't be bothered to go back yourself, I'll spell it out to you very clearly:

    1. He worked his bollocks off more than any other player in that backline.
    2. He beat more defenders than both Penaud and Bielle-Biarry (4). In fact only Keenan beat more defenders than him (5).
    3. He kicked well in general. Are we going to judge all players as 'very poor' if they make one kick that Dupont claims a mark off? You seem to think everything else should be ignored because one mistake was made.
    4. He made all of his tackles in defence, including one which forced a knock-on.
    5. You talked about him 'running down blind alleys'. Aside from Keenan, he was easily the biggest threat we had with the ball in hand, but we'll ignore that because he got shoved into touch once.

    That good enough for you? You still going to tell me that I didn't watch the same game as you did?

    "Very poor," - what utter bollocks that is.

    EDIT: Before any smart arse decides to quote this with some sarcastic remark of Osborne turning in a 'world class' performance or whatever other words you want to put in my mouth, don't.



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