Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

I don’t want to pay more tax. I want the tax burden to be redistributed (and reduced overall) from a small number of income tax payers to a wider base of less productive things…like property taxes, particular vacant ones…like pretty much every single semi-competent person who looks at our tax system recommends.

As an aside the measures being discussed are not really meant for revenue raising, more behaviour encouraging. But anyway, the whole spew above is, put kindly, a brain fart.

No these are not silly arguments these are real world issues that you have failed to address repeatedly. There are reasons why 30 days of use stops the vacancy tax along with it being self reporting. You keep saying PPR is the way to measure this but that can't happen because we don't have such a register and the property being in use does not need to be anybodies PPR. You can't change that due to our constitution about property rights.

Come up with a WORKABLE solution because so far you have failed and run away when asked to explain. I still have no idea what happens to a a holiday home in an RPZ formed after you already own it but you want a tax on that too.

I am not a troll but I see how convenient it is to claim I am so you don't have to actual answer questions. You aren't happy to disagree with me and leave it there because you are make sly comment about my points. Why not just answer the question as opposed to repeating the same thing?

How are you going to find and determine PPR on property? Your very obvious large stumbling block. This is why it is not an agree or disagree situation you need to explain how your idea will work. You keep failing and are not responding because you don't have a solution. We can agree you don't know how to possibly implement your idea and weren't aware a vacancy tax already exists

So only yearly and holiday homes get taxed? Why is only dependent related? My cousin is living there at the moment because I helping them out. What laws needs to be changed so you can store that information?

You can go back and address the other points you ignored

PPR doesn't mean a property is vacant or not

I get this point. Broadly speaking I am not against incentivising the development of property or even land through taxation. However, I do agree with Fliball123 in so far as this thread quite frequently advocates for higher taxes. I have seen people say that there should be increased annual taxes placed on properties (nigh on punitive, mind you), which are determined by the value of the house, in order to encourage older people to downsize. This increased tax would then be reflected in lower income tax (lol).

In the real world I am going to be paying extra tax on my house and my income taxes are going to stay the same. If you don't believe me I have a temporary USC bridge to sell you.

A holiday home is not a mad scenario but that is ignored when brought up.

You didn't answer the other questions at all. I have asked you to clarify everything to see how it all works.

Am I to take it you are happy with the 30 days of use as means it is not vacant? You are happy to have a house vacant 9 years if the person is in a nursing home but only if they are using fair deal?

Laws change all the time.

A tax doesn’t infringe your right to own something in the same way the current LPT I pay doesn’t infringe my right to own a home and the income tax I pay doesn’t prevent me having a job.

I’d be confident the majority wouldn’t be too upset with a modestly higher tax on holiday homes than PPRs, but of course I can’t say that conclusively without a survey.

My goodness what a long one. My replies in bold

A) there is no register of PPR so you need to create one, which requires legislation and its' own rules

You know the current VHT also takes PPR into account but is based on self declaring. A register of PPR can be self declaring also but is more comprehensive as it means people cannot declare for 2x properties that they are their PPR.

B) So only people renting can be considered to be living in a property if not PPR.

Well yeah. Who else lives in a property if it's not PPR or rented? FYI allowing extended family to live in a house is a benefit in the eyes of revenue, really this should come under RTB as a tenancy even if no rent were to be charged.

C) Other people in nursing home paying for their own care will be subject to the tax

This would also apply with current VHT that's based on self reporting occupancy.

Now there are also details you are ignoring or not stated

i) People who decide to work abroad for a while will be taxed

Moving across the country or abroad for work for extended period is leaving a property vacant. Rent it or sell it, you can't have your cake and eat it. Most people do rent the house if they are abroad for a long period anyways.

ii) holiday homes will be taxed

As they should be.

iii) no mention of how long before the vacant tax starts or stops (some suggested 2 years others 6 months)

This is an implementation level detail that posters on boards don't really need. I say 1 year (excluding property in probate)

iv) No tax on semi vacant property

What is semi vacant when it's at home?

v) No mention of short term lets

If it's rented out it isn't vacant

vi) how to deal with people moving home as the PPR takes 6 months at least

Takes 6 months to do what?

vii) No mention of the rate and how it will be calculated

Again, this level of detail is not necessary for a debate on boards. Pure pedantry, but let's say 1% of property value.

Our property taxes are comically low by international standards. Even big bad communist America would laugh at our property taxes. A slight uplift on vacant and second homes would not be at all extreme.

I own a very valuable home. My income tax bill is over 100 times the size of my LPT bill.

The need to rebalance our tax take between income and property is glaringly obvious.

So you want to change the definition of vacant from 30 days of use? If so to what? Why bother calling it a vacancy tax when you actually mean a tax on properties you don't like the use of? It requires multiple laws and constitutional changes so can you explain how you get around that?