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Saving Historic Wood lands on RMP structures across Ireland.

  • 23-02-2025 03:25AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭


    I am working on a number of projects allot are RMP sites to preserve the Trees and to get more laws passed for the 2030 EU directive

    Post edited by Capt'n Midnight on


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭heratage11


    yes conservation is very important and interesting subject. That’s interesting regarding the trees personally I would avoid cutting them especially in relation to a protected site there was a case of a land owner in Co Cork who unknowingly cut trees on a ring fort that ended up being listed along with the trees and he ended up in legal trouble with national monuments. I would get a second opinion and avoid cutting trees especially if they are old

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭heratage11


    that’s interesting I would consult with national monuments Ireland they enforce the laws on protected structures ring forts etc. Architects generally don’t understand the various laws regarding old structures and trees etc in the case of the land owner in Co Cork with the ring fort ended up in a long legal battle with the governing body’s if the RMP preservation order states trees or historic wooded area I would avoid cutting them anyway trees offer huge ecological benefits and noise reduction and privacy and speaking of ecological impact another reason not to cut any trees as there are more laws on the wildlife to that if you cut any trees you could be in violation of those laws to. That’s my humble opinion

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭heratage11


    I wouldn’t be concerned with the council per say the body to be most concerned with is National Monuments they have allot of power to enforce laws if any aspect is being deemed endangered for example if historic trees are on the preservation order and they are cut down that could well be in violation of the law. I would be very concerned and would not cut trees down as it could result in legal consequences for sure! As far as I I know the national monuments govern all structures listed on the RMP personally I wouldn’t be happy of trees were cut down if I was a local resident.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭heratage11


    actually the trees are listed and protected I did some research if you look on RMP maps again I’d avoid cutting them as that is clearly illegal. I wish you the best of luck but I think you and the councils architect don’t understand the laws if you are thinking to cut down a historic woodland that is protected I think that will be strongly opposed by locals at least if that was going on in my locality I’d not be happy. Not trying to be negative or anything but my advice is before cutting any tree is to review all laws ultimately in the end the last ting is do is cut the trees from a good map search it would not look good. Your first hurdle as far as I can see is planning I’d try to secure that before doing anything without planning its a non starter

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭heratage11


    no I am actually a conservationist and I work all over Ireland to protect endangered species woodland and the environment. At the moment the EU’s COP 26 will end all deforestation by 2030. So as you can imagine we closely observe all current future and proposed development across Ireland to ensure the protection of our woodlands etc

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭heratage11


    any tree over 10 years old has a TPO order. As this site is protected by the highest level under the RMP the woodland is over 100 years old and is fully protected in fact you could say the historic woodland on top of the ice tower is as important from a historical aspect as the trees were purposely planted to keep the ice house cool to protect the contents inside. Trust me all this area along wiry part of the old Moydrum forest 🌳 has a protected status

    Post edited by Capt'n Midnight on


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 94,795 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    https://www.treecouncil.ie/trees-and-the-law At the bottom there's a bit about cutting trees without a license. Most of the exemptions relate to building and 10m from public road.

    A tree outside a forest, the removal of which is specified in a grant of planning permission, providing it was indicated on the lodged plans as being planned for removal as part of the application.

     

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭heratage11


    EU legislation has been clear about this and COP 26 brings a total ban on deforestation by 2030 they are taking this very seriously along with government policy in Ireland! Trees are an essential component in our biodiversity and survival. Thankfully the EU and local government bodies have been supportive in preventing deforestation. I would highly doubt any license will be granted to cut this historic woodland at Moydrum Castle in Athlone

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭heratage11


    on closer inspection and looking at the register they have been noted as Beech far from weeds regardless a tree is a vital component in biodiversity conservation and this will be taken seriously for example the Sentinel-1 system satellite cameras recording will detect any soil conditions or events and or trees being cut it’s has the algorithm to detect this farmers are aware of this where they get a letter if they plough a field at the wrong time of year the system detects it etc

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,680 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Beech are not native, but at least they are not as invasive as sycamore. I am all in favour of tree preservation, and over the last 5 years I have planted around 50 trees on my 1 acre site. I also removed about 4 sycamores (there are still three, including a huge old granddaddy) which opened up a dark and gloomy space that now has crabapples, hawthorn, hazel, bird cherry and other trees. However if sycamore are to be granted preserved status the entire country is going to be covered with them - every spring anyone with a sycamore on their site can go round and gather dozens of seedling sycamore trees from every path and pot and border.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭heratage11


    it’s not about whether a tree is considered native or not! It’s about getting the numbers of trees up and preserving the biodiversity and historical woodlands. All the trees are included no one type is any more significant than the next they all play a vital role in the biodiversity. The laws have been quite clear about this COP26 will see a complete ban on deforestation and in order to cut a tree there will have to be full consultation and permits would need to be granted and as far as I can see it’s becoming near impossible to get permits to cut a tree in the normal circumstances as it stands today. Also in order to ascertain what kind of tree you have is not as simple as you would expect. For example if a preservation order stipulates woodland then it doesn’t messily matter what species there are a wood land design designation is a woodland and can’t be altered regardless if it has wildlife and biodiversity on them grounds alone you would be unable to cut the trees regardless of what species they are because to cut the trees will automatically negatively impact the wildlife and biodiversity see it’s all linked together.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,882 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    Personal opinions here… but I'm all ears for ecological conservation, but I'm also all ears for maintaining and/or restoring our built heritage. Trees can be part of that, but only when they are in the right place and allow or support the intent of restoration. Surely there is some flexibility in and can't be a blanket-ban on 'deforestation' country-wide? Seems counterproductive to projects such as this?

    Post edited by Capt'n Midnight on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,141 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Now this is where box ticking goes into over drive. A native Irish tree, like an oak will have approximately 300 other species living on it, an imported tree, like sycamore, will have 15. The sycamore therefore has a negative impact on the environment.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,141 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    And don’t get me started on Sitka…

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭heratage11


    For to long out biodiversity has not been regarded gone are the days where you can randomly cut trees and knock down protected trees and structures. I have spent the last 25 years working to get laws passed and in the last 5 years the local authorities and government along with the EU directive have really stepped in and have begun to really enforce the laws thankfully. A big turning point was during the 2007 Dublin to Galway motorway construction so many ring forts and historic trees ditches were destroyed. One good thing is that the RMP map was updated and since then the government has started to take tings seriously

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    This is a man made site though. Not touching the trees will result in eventual decay and destruction of built heritage.

    Chop the trees, restore the buildings, plant more trees that aren't too close to buildings. Everyone's a winner.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭heratage11


    As it stands the law says differently. The species are negatively impacted the minute a 🌲 is cut down that’s what the facts are. We are all entitled to our opinions but the laws have ti be followed and enforced

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭heratage11


    IMG_4326.png

    In the above article the land owner faced legal proceedings Thai was back in 2010 laws are even more stringent now

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,141 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Post edited by Capt'n Midnight on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,680 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I have no issue with woodland and hedgerows being preserved, they should be. I have respect for trees and would love to see more land covered in trees, but does this mean that the rhododendron covering vast areas of land have to be preserved? Its leafy stuff covering ground, should it be allowed to proliferate? It does not do much for wild life and kills off local vegetation, does it still get a pass? If I acquire a piece of land that is overgrown with laurel and sycamores is this as valuable as the potential native woodland that could be created if the sycamores and laurel could be removed?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭heratage11


    It takes decades for a tree to grow. Regardless of the species of tree when the tree is mature is has huge capacity to improve the air quality and biodiversity. If they are cut down the air quality and biodiversity is immediately negatively impacted for decades this is why the European directive and COP 26 is taking this so seriously they want to plant more and preserve mature trees this is the law today I am proud of the work we are doing on a daily basis there is never a dull moment between the local authorities government bodies etc I will say that Citizens who take part are a huge help that’s how the Mahon Tribunal got started a few concerned citizens and that ultimately lead to the tribunal which was a good stepping stone to the good laws we have today around planning zoning and protecting the biodiversity and built heritage

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,608 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    This is not going to be transposed into Irish law this way. Nor will it in EU law.

    The idea that you cannot fell any mature tree ever is total nonsense. It will never become law

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,680 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    This is totally irrelevant to the argument about the trees. However, I briefly owned a piece of woodland with a ring fort, it had trees (the ubiquitous sycamores) growing out of it and was in danger of disappearing. So what is the solution, allow it to grow wild till it just disappears, or remove the trees and preserve the ringfort? In the event I had to sell it so someone else will have to decide whether a ring fort or a few sycamores are more important.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,316 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    Post edited by Capt'n Midnight on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭heratage11


    in many cases it already is law! It’s been worked on daily by our government and the EU

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,608 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    I don't want to drag the thread off topic anymore - but if it was actually banned to fell mature trees and plant more in kind then the entire EU forestry industry would grind to a halt.

    It simply is not and will not be law that you cannot fell mature trees simply because they are mature - trees will always need to be felled for a variety of reasons, and one such reason is if they put built heritage at risk.

    OP trust the council conservation architects on this, if they have no objections to the tree felling then go right ahead.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭heratage11


    The ring fort can be CPO’d by the local authorities and or national monuments should it become endangered this applies for all RMP environments. To touch a ring fort would be a very negative thing to think of let alone to do.


    the decision over what’s more important the ring fort or the trees is a decision that’s not taken lightly! All have huge significance in many cases the decision by national monuments is to leave the trees alone as any interference by cutting the trees has a direct negative impact on biodiversity air quality and any structural change to the underlying structure more often than not the governing body’s are against any form of intervention is seen as a negative old structures under the RMP are designated to be left as artifacts rather than to be altered or restored

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,882 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    But then the law is at odds-with and is at risk of being disregarded as it's not compatible with the practicalities and needs of life on the island. Nor is it supportive of the built heritage and possibly compromises the structure of ruins or dilapidated buildings due to the usual red-tape around the application of these rules. How do you get a tree surgeon to manage the decay of an 250 year old row of trees at a reasonable price which are within falling-distance of a listed monument? The law then is a blunt instrument which simply delays process and progress.

    It's ironic that on this thread we have some of the most ecologically-minded individuals contributing who are fully supportive of the primary objectives of this directive, but yet are seeing the apparent shortfalls in the execution and practicalities of the proposed situation.

    Maybe the nuances are in the detail which aren't being communicated here - and I get that this is a public forum and brevity is key, but I'm worried that this is a train coming down the track which is just going to be labeled as another 'green-party initiated' beating-stick to swing at the government (sorry for going semi-political on this).

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭heratage11


    I am not speaking to the forestry sector that’s a whole different kettle of fish that is being closely monitored and controlled. We are talking about the rest of the historic woodland and RMP environments you are incorrect it is law we deal with it every day of the week and I’ve seen many people be stopped by the law.The councils conversation architects are only party to contend with in a very complex system.

    To be clear it is illegal to cut any tree listed on a protected structure that is the law of the land and it will be enforced it’s not as simple as firing up a chainsaw

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,882 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    Regardless of the species of tree when the tree is mature is has huge capacity to improve the air quality and biodiversity.

    Nature also has a huge capacity to recover given the right conditions.

    Use the carrot instead of the whip.

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