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Accidental Landlord Question -

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,774 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    Do the sums...tax owed before interest /penalty will be low. The serious crime you hope they will be convicted of will be mitigated by self declaring and the amount of tax owed.

    Gary, with respect, what you think of what the OP did or it's seriousness does not matter. Everyone makes mistakes and this does not read to me as deliberate or serious tax evasion. Sorry to break the bad news but someone has to tell you.

    I know you have no time for landlords and used terribly rude word out of context to refer to the three that had the misfortune to rent to you. The reality is most LL are probably nicer than you and certainly not as bitter. The OP will move on, you need to as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭cfingers


    Will they be able to claim mortgage interest if they were not registered with the rtb?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,774 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    Yes, once the retrospectively register and pay the fees before making the return for each year. See attached



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,239 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    Just to follow up on my earlier advice re an Accountant...

    Make sure that you pay the Revenue SOMETHING. Don't push the boat out too far with rental expenses or capital allowances. Paying the Revenue means you have a better chance of avoiding an audit.

    And if that happens, you WILL need an accountant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    OP has got into a mess for sure. It’s hard to see how anyone letting property in the past number of years wasn’t aware of the RTB and the numerous changes in the rental sector. It was in the news and on tv and radio programmes constantly. Some sectors are more tightly regulated than others to cut out the ‘black market’ and property seems to be top of that list. Also, everyone that works, whether paye or self employed, knows that income is taxable.

    Having said that, all sorts of people do nixers and cash jobs, they know the game and so do their customers, but those people (both traders and professionals) don’t seem to get the same hatred as landlords. It is very strange and must be connected to historical issues where all landlords were seen as evil personified, ergo, all landlords today must also be evil greedy parasites, who take advantage, swindle and mistreat tenants. Please 🤣

    The way some people go on, one would think that tenants are less than savvy and are hoodwinked into signing a lease. It’s like there’s a plot by ‘greedy landlords’ to part them from their money when in fact, landlords are supplying the dwelling and tenants are paying to use it. No different than any other sector when a renter pays for a service where the ownership of the item does not change. There are many things that fall into that category, but those suppliers don’t seem to get the same hatred and vitriol that is levelled at the suppliers of dwellings.

    Also, consumers of any item or product pay for the assets and goodwill of a business over time, most businesses operate for profit. Property letting in the private market is the same, it’s not a social enterprise even though some would like it to be. The social responsibility belongs to the state and the many charities funded by the state, not private landlords.

    In the real world, the OP’s tenants had a great deal for 12 years, and like most consumers, they were glad of it and didn’t turn it down. The OP’s tax affairs are nobody’s business except revenue and they will be sorted eventually. If there are back taxes, fines or penalties due, they will be paid. The state coffers will not miss out. No hatred needed.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,239 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    Remember as well the OP will be asked to tick a box on

    I can vouch for this advice, having been in practice for 30 years.

    Actually on the Income Tax return you have to tick a box that you are compliant with the RTB etc. so the OP will need to sort that out as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,791 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Mrslancaster:

    Also, consumers of any item or product pay for the assets and goodwill of a business over time, most businesses operate for profit. Property letting in the private market is the same, it’s not a social enterprise even though some would like it to be. The social responsibility belongs to the state and the many charities funded by the state, not private landlords.

    To be clear, the assets and other capital of any enterprise are provided by the shareholders/owners/proprietors of the enterprise, not by the customers. It's the fact that they provide the capital that entitles the owners to receive the profits of the business. This is pretty much the fundamental basis of the capitalist enterprise. It's really not negotiable. (An enterprise in which the customers provide the capital is what we call a co-operative or a collective. In such an enterprise there are no external owners to whom the profits of the business are to be paid.)

    Obviously, the capitalist who owns an enterprise hopes/expects that the profits of the business that they receive will exceed the cost (to them) of providing the capital; if they didn't, they wouldn't invest in the business. But there is a risk that the profits will not exceed the cost of capital and that risk is born by them, the capitalists, not by their customers. There's no reason why the price am enterprise can charge its customers should be assumed to rise to cover the owner's cost of capital, whatever that might be. If an owner finds himself in the position that profits don't cover the cost of capital, he might consider himself unfortunate, or he might consider himself foolish, but what he is not entitled to do is consider himself unfairly treated. A risk that he took has gone against him; that is nobody else's fault. Nor is this an example of market failure; the market is in fact working exactly as a market should.

    A time of housing crisis caused by hugely increased property values is precisely the kind of time where landlords may suffer. The more houses cost, the more capital a landlord has to put in to his enterprise of renting a home. Therefore, the higher the rent he will have to charge for the profits of the enterprise to cover his cost of capital. But the higher the rent, the lower the demand. You might think that everybody needs to be housed, and they do, but they don't all have to be housed in privately-owned property let at the market rent. More and more of the housing demand will be diverted into other options — people seek housing from the local authority or other housing agencies; they live for longer in shared houses, renting one house between them instead of two or three; they live at home for longer, renting no house at all; etc. And, remember, a great many people who are seeking to rent properties are doing so precisely because they can't finance the cost of buying properties. But if they can't afford to finance the cost of buying a property directly, the likelihood that they can afford rents that will indirectly finance it is not great.

    In other words, the times we are living in right now are precisely the times when landlords are at greatest risk of net rents not covering their cost of capital. So if the market is working as markets should, we should expect landlording to be a not very profitable enterprise right now, and a higher than usual proportion of landlords to be experiencing financial stress.

    It is very strange and must be connected to historical issues where all landlords were seen as evil personified, ergo, all landlords today must also be evil greedy parasites, who take advantage, swindle and mistreat tenants. Please 🤣

    It's not that strange. Sure, it's not fair on landlords, because they are not, in fact, all evil greedy parasites. (The OP, in particular, clearly is not.) But in a time of housing crisis tenants also suffer, and it's understandable that they will look for someone to blame. The landlord is an obvious target. (Made more obvious, I have to say, by those landlords who go about loudly complaining in ways that make it clear that they regard it as their entitlement to have rents always cover their cost of capital.)

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,464 ✭✭✭munster87


    I’ve never seen so many back claps for tax evasion!

    ‘Ah but sure someone else benefited too!’


    ffs



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,791 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    All people are saying, I think, is that the OP's tax evasion was not motivated by greed. He didn't trouser the excess profits resulting from the evasion, but generously passed them to his tenant in the form of a heavily discounted rent.

    (He didn't think this through, obviously, so we don't have a Robin Hood vibe going on here. But he wasn't motivated by greed.)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,464 ✭✭✭munster87


    And all I’m saying is people are bordering on praise for someone not paying tax for a decade or so.
    Being naive and being ‘fair’ to another individual shouldn’t draw anything near acceptance.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,246 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    @Donald Trump

    No matter how many times you say it renting property is not passive investment. For a person claiming what is “correct” you know that it is an outright lie to keep calling it that. I won’t bother repeating myself on issues I have dealt with because you are not going to respond to those issues. Passive investment has a definition and renting a property is clearly not in that realm.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Well as long as you are equally as ok with the local shopkeeper importing the cigarettes and selling them with the fake sticker.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Hi Ray. Googling for the definition might help. Take a look and come back to me if you are still as adamant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,814 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    I also laugh at the "accidental landlord" tag that people give themselves, as if they fell over their shoelace one day and ended up with a property that they have been renting out or several years, with no way out



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭notAMember


    OP. You have evaded tax. You're going to have to pay that back, potentially with penalties.

    To do this:

    either sell that house that I assume you have some capital built up

    or sell the house you are in and move into the other house

    or empty your savings accounts

    All the hand-wringing, claiming ignorance of the law, and poor starving tenant stuff won't fly with revenue. And coming from my perspective as a fully tax-compliant landlord this is only fair to the rest of us.

    And I hope the rest of the renters here understand what makes up their rent. ~50% of it is tax.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    My view is that neither the landlord failing to declare income, nor the shopkeeper selling the smuggled cigarettes, should be allowed any mitigation for the fact that their respective customers got "a great deal". That's hardly too difficult to get your head around, is it? The same would hold for the builder doing his weekend nixer of the extension for cash-in-hand.

    The other stuff about the imagined "large corporate tax dodgers" in fantasy at worst, and whataboutery at best.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    @boardsdotie44 What you need to try to get your head around first is the difference between making use of a perfectly legally approach to minimise one's tax and illegal acts i.e. fraud.

    For example, renting out a room in your PPR and not paying tax on the 14k income you get is perfectly fine once you do all the necessary steps. Renting out your holiday home to others when you are not using it and not paying due tax on the 14k income you get from it is not. The latter is true even if you undercharged your visitors by 1k over the year to pay you in cash in the hope that you would not be caught.

    You have to step away from the completely self-centred view of the world.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84 ✭✭Shandon


    Kind of related question.

    Property rented for ten years well below the market rent. 1200 instead of 1900.

    Finally raised the rent by 60 a year back. But registered with RTB that rent was 1600.

    Fully tax compliant on the actual 1200 rent collected.

    Decided to sell the property now. Estate agent said the rtb registered rent of 1600 makes it much more attractive to investors.

    Question is .. is there a danger here that revenue looks at the RTB declaration and comes after me for tax on rent of 1600?

    Do revenue and rtb work together on this?

    Would the fine for declaring the wrong rent to rtb be worth less than the tax or fine for the income I never actually made?

    Thanks for any help ...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,791 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    You're only liable to income tax on the rent that you actually received. Presumably you're in a position to prove, if challenged, that you only received 1200 (bank statements, records of lodgements, etc).

    The risk you face is (1) some kind of fine or penalty for the false registration with the RTB (and I have no idea how big that is or how likely they are to impose it) and (2) an action for misrepresentation by the purchaser of the property, who bought it in the belief that it was being rented for 1600 when in fact it was not, and therefore was induced to pay considerably more than it was worth by your fraudulent misrepresentation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,451 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    OP: some points


    1:RTB may fine you for non registering


    2: aswell as money owed , revenue may fine/penalise you


    3: you can’t raise rent beyond what the RPZ allow

    4: tenant can challenge rent review : RTB could fine iou.

    5: you will find it hard to evict tenant


    6: selling the property to an investor is not an option because of low rent. So only option is occupier buyer


    7: you are an adult. You can’t hide behind accidental landlord . You need to take responsibility



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,868 ✭✭✭ballyharpat


    With the new regulations, a new landlord can increase the rent to market value.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,178 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    "Question is .. is there a danger here that revenue looks at the RTB declaration and comes after me for tax on rent of 1600?"

    No. You don't get taxed on arrears you never collect.



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