Create a European Defence Force and Disband NATO in a few years

Eh NATO spending without US is still several times larger than the total Russian state budget

People getting carried away

Why just an EU one, why not all of Europe and maybe include countries that are aligned with the goals and objectives of a European military. In particular those countries that border the North Atlantic.

We could call it a North Atlantic Treaty and build an organisation accordingly, with the over riding agreement that an attack on one is an attack on all. Countries would have to pull their weight though and commit to actually having a military that is proportional to the size of each country’s economy, so maybe they should all spend an agreed amount of their GDP on defence.

I like that idea, now what should we call it…..?

It’s about 2/3rds of total

BUT even if you take out US what remains is still much larger than the total Russian budget

This is 2023

The same country whose men are dying like lemmings against the poorest country in Europe

Yes, thats absolutely accurate.

But the NATO Order of Battle has evolved such that the United States owns and keeps command of the vast, vast majority of the nuclear deterrent, almost every space based intelligence and communication platform and 11 of the 16 fast-jet Aircraft Carriers.

Not to mention sole production rights and IP on most cruise missiles, most land based conventional ballistic missiles, air defence platforms like Patriot and Iron Dome, combat information command and control technology like AEGIS. I could go on.

The point is, NATO ex-America may still have a greater spend than Russia, but it would have massive gaping holes in capability, even against Russia, that would take years to address, beginning with creating all manner of substitute technologies from the ground up.

Its well within the capacity of Europe and Canada and others to do it, but it would need a colossal spike in investment, probably of the order of 250 Billion dollars a year, every year, for 15 to 20 years.

Lets see if we find out that sort of commitment is under discussion in Munich.

I actually agree with you

The problem for Russia is that they are already at war footing on a tiny economy and rapidly dwindling population, while Europe has both several times larger populations and economies even if likes of Hungary don’t do anything

While if Europe endsup in a war with Russia, it be a race between the Poles and the Nordics and Turkey as to whom get to Moscow faster while all of his military are tied down in Ukraine

While the Chinese take over Siberia

That’s now, if Ukraine war settles and Russia somehow remains at same military expenditure for 5 years (and we in Europe resume trading with em) then yes they become a serious threat to Europe, which is why it’s important to keep Ukraine as ready as possible to take advantage of any Russian aggression when they are stretched

Which is what ISW been warning about

chart is bullshit.

this lists u.s. total defense spend.

and labels it as u.s. nato spend.

the two things are completely different.

total spend would constitute all spending on everything down to janitorial services in arkansas.

nato spend is what u.s. spends on nato as a sub-category of the total.

is that defence spending or NATO defence spending, this makes uppey sub category you seem to have invented.

Make it happen, a European army led by Ukraine, France & Poland would be a formidable force. I'm sure many other European nations would also join.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-russia-war-live-putin-nuclear-weapons-vance-munich-b2698822.html?page=3

the u.s does not spend $860bn on nato, despite the claim made in the chart above. Its intentionally misleading.

Whats so hard to understand.

There are defense alliances within certain eu countries, independent of nato or the eu.

Theres nordefco and individual agreements like the France-Greece pact, France-Moldova pact, or UK-Poland pact, or UK-Romania pact. Germany-UK. The EU common security policy is in the background too.

Russia must know that its very tricky to attack one country without possibly causing a cascade which ends up with them out of their depth.

the chart you posted is bullsht.

im not questioning anything else.

But that image/chart is intentionally misleading.

It takes ALL defense spending by the US and says 'u.s. spends this on nato'.

So according to that chart all u.s. defense spending from meeting room chairs in Seattle to firing ranges in Florida is solely for the benefit of nato. The cost of foundations being laid in Idaho is for Europes benefit according to that horsesht chart.

I imagine it came to you via a maga hat, and got to him from a troll farm in Russia. Its disinformation.

No.

Your picture says, direct quote, "Breaking down $1.3 trn in NATO DEFENSE SPENDING".

Under this title US is listed as $860bn.

Is this not the claim that US spends $860 on nato?

The image is meant to form the conclusion that the US is spending $860bn on nato.

That is untrue.

This is disinformation and its supposed to confuse and anger the dim witted. Probably into voting for maga.

US total spend on nato + their own defense is 860bn.

US total spend on nato alone is not 860bn.

"The U.S. contributes around 16% to NATO's civil and military budgets, which in 2023 amounted to about 3.3 billion euros (approximately $3.5 billion USD at exchange rates in 2023)."

• Grok.

My question in a similar vein is "Would I send my sons to fight"