M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

Consonata · 30-01-2025 07:19PM

There probably is a future for this project as part of a larger package of works aimed at reducing congestion in the city.

The road could compliment well with reducing lanes on radial roads so as to facilitate bus corridors into the city from park and rides on the outskirts. Could also benefit if they ever did come up with some sort of a GART proposal between Galway station and Athenry again with park and rides to ferry people quickly into the city.

Unfortunately the council's modus operandi will always be the bloody road and nothing else. If the road is built in isolation, it will for a certainty make traffic inside the city so much worse if we don't bundle in other dense public transport proposals.

SeanW · 30-01-2025 11:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123083416#Comment_123083416

The problem with this line of thinking is that we've seen so many commentators demanding everything else, while demanding that no bypass be built at all. Given the rising power of anti-motorist jihadis, it's important IMO that the local authority proceed with care. They should ensure that the ring road or whatever it is called now is included as part of a broader plan.

Seth Brundle · 31-01-2025 12:09AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123118629#Comment_123118629

anti-motorist jihadis

Ah, would you ever stop with the nonsense Sean? You could have posted a reasonable argument but instead go and ruin it with childish crap like that!

KrisW1001 · 31-01-2025 09:06AM

@SeanW If you want to call people “jihadis” just for holding an opposing opinion to yours, then the Daily Mail has a website where you’ll find a more receptive audience…

You overestimate the “no ring-road at all” lobby. They’re not large, and not credible. Everyone with any sense realises that there needs to be a way to get past the centre of Galway, and that means a new road. The arguments against this plan were primarily that it won’t fix the problem: it’s using the “add more lanes” approach that has tried and failed everywhere it’s been used. You build a new road, and you end up with more traffic, and five years later, journey times are back where they were. This shouldn’t be controversial. If people are given no alternative way of getting into the city, car traffic will just increase to fill the available space.

My objection to this road was that it came with nothing else to fix the problems in Galway, and there were only vague promises of “oh, something with bikes, and a bus or two, maybe” to be done at some indeterminate time afterwards. You’re right that the road won’t get permission unless it’s part of a full plan for fixing Galway’s appalling traffic congestion, but there seems to be no interest from GCC in putting the work in on such a plan. The longer they delay, the longer Galway will have to put up with its stupid levels of traffic.

(My secondary argument against this planned road was the use of very expensive tunnelled stretches just to placate the owners of the racecourse: a routing should have been found that avoided this enormous extra cost)

hans aus dtschl · 31-01-2025 10:24AM

I also thought that the quantity of junctions looked like an obvious (deliberate) problem. It was clear that this road was being designed as both a development facilitator and a bypass, and that it would both fail in its purpose(s) and cause a bigger problem of car dependency to be resolved by "someone else" at "some time" in the future. There is a distributor road already (which is dysfunctional) people need both.

I think most people here are in agreement with the idea that "doing this proposed road in isolation is likely not a good idea". It's not about being anti-car.

what_traffic · 31-01-2025 11:21AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123119141#Comment_123119141

Great post.

The great and fundamental weakness of the GCRR propasal - was that it was not tied in with 100% concrete measures to be implemented in tandem on existing network when the so called "freed up space" would be available. It would have it gotten it over the line years ago if they have done that

SeanW · 01-02-2025 05:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123119141#Comment_123119141

Perhaps I should have used the term "activist" but a stronger term is definitely applicable to some.

Normally I don't put much stock in the principle of "induced demand" being a bad thing, because IMHO people being able to get around is not, at least ipso facto, a bad thing.

I do agree with a lot of what you have said though about doing a ring road in isolation. I think anyone would agree for a growing region just building roads is a bad idea. Indeed, that was what went wrong in Dublin - most of the investment in transport infrastructure in Dublin came in the form of the M50 (including the Port Tunnel) but it's been mainly crumbs for public transport for example. Two tram lines, a few extra bits of bus lane here and there, and some platform lengthening on the DART. I know from personal experience how awful PT in Dublin was when I worked there, the few high quality transport links in the immediate region were crammed like sardine cans.

I agree that Galway should be told in no uncertain terms not to repeat this mistake. However, in defence of the local authorities, I do see them fearing that there are those seeking to make sure the road does not happen under any circumstances, and I could see them being afraid that if they took measures "in advance of" the ring road or "in the meantime" those would become "instead of" if either an economic crisis or environmentalist/anti motorist pressure caused the road to be cancelled.

This situation - in equal measure to a "roads only" solution, must be avoided, and IMHO they have a mandate to prevent both.

Glenomra · 01-02-2025 06:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123123976#Comment_123123976

The indefinite postponement of the construction of the ring road, be it justified or not, is certainly impacting on Galway's development at the moment. More people that traditionally went shopping\socialising in Galway that I know are going to Limerick City instead. The Crescent and Jetland shopping centres etc are so easily accessed because of Limerick tunnel.

Consonata · 02-02-2025 09:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123123976#Comment_123123976

However, in defence of the local authorities, I do see them fearing that there are those seeking to make sure the road does not happen under any circumstances, and I could see them being afraid that if they took measures "in advance of" the ring road or "in the meantime" those would become "instead of" if either an economic crisis or environmentalist/anti motorist pressure caused the road to be cancelled.

This is being rather too generous to GCC. They have never had a clear plan for PT for the city that wasn't enforced upon them by the NTA.

hans aus dtschl · 04-02-2025 10:18AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123123976#Comment_123123976

I understand where you're coming from (and agree in principle) but the same council you're giving "the benefit of doubt" are generally strongly against ANY sustainable transport projects. They won't even do bike lanes and footpath upgrades for the most part - the very easiest things to get done.

Seth Brundle · 04-02-2025 10:43AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123123976#Comment_123123976

Normally I don't put much stock in the principle of "induced demand" being a bad thing, because IMHO people being able to get around is not, at least ipso facto, a bad thing.

I don't think anyone suggested that it would be a bad thing, including those you accuse of being jihadis/activists.

I do agree with a lot of what you have said though about doing a ring road in isolation. I think anyone would agree for a growing region just building roads is a bad idea. Indeed, that was what went wrong in Dublin - most of the investment in transport infrastructure in Dublin came in the form of the M50 (including the Port Tunnel) but it's been mainly crumbs for public transport for example. Two tram lines, a few extra bits of bus lane here and there, and some platform lengthening on the DART. I know from personal experience how awful PT in Dublin was when I worked there, the few high quality transport links in the immediate region were crammed like sardine cans.

Since it's inception, the GCRR has been looked at in isolation. The councils behind it have not put forward any alternative measures for moving people around aside from some wishy washy "we will look into this" nonsense. It is backward thinking that has been shown to just increase car dependency.

If you want to improve either public transport or active travel (both of which should be a high priority on any city's list) then you cannot have them as a small insignificant part of a large city transport plan which is exactly what the plan for Galway is. People moan about how traffic is so bad and they need the road and, like yourself, blaming the jihadis for delays to "improvements" whereas we all know from decades of experience that the current scope for "improvements" will not improve Galways traffic issues.

It was the same with Dublin - we prioritised car based traffic and allowed PT to become a poor alternative option. Now, we are left with a poor quality PT network in Dublin and any future improvements will cost us a lot more to develop.

I agree that Galway should be told in no uncertain terms not to repeat this mistake. However, in defence of the local authorities, I do see them fearing that there are those seeking to make sure the road does not happen under any circumstances, and I could see them being afraid that if they took measures "in advance of" the ring road or "in the meantime" those would become "instead of" if either an economic crisis or environmentalist/anti motorist pressure caused the road to be cancelled.
This situation - in equal measure to a "roads only" solution, must be avoided, and IMHO they have a mandate to prevent both.

I don't think people have said no to the road - they have said no to the road in the complete absence of any alternatives. What hasn't been done though is a proper evaluation of whether the road is actually needed IF Galway were to develop a proper PT & AT plan where people would choose it over the car where possible. If there were proper alternative options for people travelling in and around galway city, would a road actually be necessary or would the existing road suffice? The fact is, we don't know because Galway didn't bother their hole looking ito it in any meaningful way!

SeanW · 04-02-2025 10:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123132602#Comment_123132602

alternative or complementary?

I don't think anyone wants to see a repeat of what happened in Dublin. But it's equally clear that there are those who do not to learn from that mistake, but simply to make the same mistake in reverse.

Any realistic suggestion of other measures being "alternatives" and not complementary relies on an idea - that proponents of it must prove - that the existing road network is somehow adequate despite having been conceived in - and for - an Ireland that was a third world backwater defined by poverty, emigration, unemployment, corruption and a total deference to a church hierarchy. A country with no apparent future, and a people who had nowhere to go, nothing to do when they got there, and no way to get there even if they wanted to. A.k.a. a different country.

At least on a volte face basis, that case can be disproven by having even a passing understanding of Irish history, an ability to read a map (which would show the problem of a choke-point on the Headford Road for example), ever having been to Galway or the surrounding region, having any concern whatsoever for the Western county, which is effectively cut off from the rest of the country by the current mess, or an ability to see any of this beyond ideological blinkers.

Seth Brundle · 04-02-2025 10:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123135202#Comment_123135202

alternative or complementary?

I'm not sure what you're referring to specifically but I was referring to alternative modes of transport

I don't think anyone wants to see a repeat of what happened in Dublin. But it's equally clear that there are those who do not to learn from that mistake, but simply to make the same mistake in reverse.

Are we in agreement that this project as currently proposed is such a mistake?

Any realistic suggestion of other measures being "alternatives" and not complementary relies on an idea - that proponents of it must prove - that the existing road network is somehow adequate despite having been conceived in - and for - an Ireland that was a third world backwater defined by poverty, emigration, unemployment, corruption and a total deference to a church hierarchy. A country with no apparent future, and a people who had nowhere to go, nothing to do when they got there, and no way to get there even if they wanted to. A.k.a. a different country.

Again, I was referring to alternative modes of transport to the private car. I'm not going down a rabbithole of discussing the church, etc.

At least on a volte face basis, that case can be disproven by having even a passing understanding of Irish history, an ability to read a map (which would show the problem of a choke-point on the Headford Road for example), ever having been to Galway or the surrounding region, having any concern whatsoever for the Western county, which is effectively cut off from the rest of the country by the current mess, or an ability to see any of this beyond ideological blinkers.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

SeanW · 04-02-2025 10:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123135219#Comment_123135219

My point (which should have been obvious) was that Galway's modern road network was laid down back in 1984, in what was basically a different country. The idea that a hodge-podge of street-road hybrids done on the cheap for a third world backwater back then is any way appropriate for Ireland 40+ years later is something I consider to be absurd on its face.

And while I'm leery of just building the GCRR and doing nothing else, not building the GCRR for whatever reason would be a mistake.

Green Peter · 04-02-2025 11:01PM

Lets do nothing, I doubt Galway will get any bigger, let's leave it to our children and grandchildren. Let them pay for it. Nothing to see here. We can all pretend it's 1986, smoke hash and parade in the arts festival and vote for Michael D and to heck with anyone else who wants to make a life in Galway.

KrisW1001 · 05-02-2025 09:07AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123135278#Comment_123135278

The plan in 1984 was exactly what would have been done in any other developed nation in a town of 60,000 people - let’s not kid ourself about the scale of Irish “cities”. Relief roads, express routes and a new bridge crossing. It didn’t work, but not because it was “on the cheap” - it was quite a bit to spend on such a small town that wasn’t on the way to somewhere else. The construction didn’t work because it wasn't addressing the root problem: there was, and still is, no alternative to the private car for getting around Galway.

This ring road can alleviate the worst symptoms of the previous disease, but it should be understood that it can only buy the time needed to completely overhaul public transport and active travel within the City.

xckjoo · 05-02-2025 11:23AM

It's also a bit disingenuous to date the road network as from 1984. It's constantly being updated and redeveloped.

hans aus dtschl · 05-02-2025 12:27PM

Just another small detail: the project team reviewing the traffic numbers found that the majority of traffic needing to be facilitated was local commuter traffic. They found that the quantity of traffic needing to purely bypass the city from East to West (and not access the city) was too low to justify a true bypass.

This is likely why they specifically opted for a road design that would double-job and increase the number of vehicles, in an effort to justify the large capital expenditure needed for this road.

So, somewhat counter-intuitively, I'd be in favour of this road if it was made a true bypass even though it would facilitate less traffic. Fewer junctions, in simple language. And then get on with making the existing distributor work as a distributor, and get on with putting in a city transport system.

It's a city: cars are an inefficient mode of local transport within a city. More roads won't fix that. A bypass is needed, so build a bypass. Both please. And this road is neither.

xckjoo · 05-02-2025 12:39PM

The other thing I've issue with is they say the purpose isn't to open up the west to development, but 1) it definitely will and 2) I'd have no problem with that if the development was planned. Develop some existing or new villages around strong infrastructure links instead of the hodge-podge mess of inefficiency we normally see.

Consonata · 29-03-2025 07:50PM

I see the ring road is getting €2.5mn in funding allocation, why are we burning cash on a dead project. Is it just to appease the Independent TDs in Government

markpb · 30-03-2025 07:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123309952#Comment_123309952

€2.5m is small change and keeps people happy. There are no votes in being the first to admit when a horse has been flogged to death.

KrisW1001 · 30-03-2025 10:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123310732#Comment_123310732

It's fairly clear that to get permission, this project needs to be redesigned. €2.5m would cover the cost of that this year.

CatInABox · 03-04-2025 10:14AM

GCRR goes back into ABP for consideration tomorrow, apparently. I had thought that it was actually back with them already, to be honest, but I guess it was stuck in the council all this time.

https://connachttribune.ie/galway-ring-road-goes-back-to-planning-authority/

Be interesting to see how they square the climate action plan circle on this, I personally can't see how they'd make changes to get this to emissions neutral without adding in a citywide rejig of public and active transport. Anyway, that's for another day to be honest, I can't see ABP not approving this, be very, very surprised if they shot it down. It'll be a while before ABP approve it anyway, as they'll now know the scrutiny this project will be under, and any t or i left uncrossed or undotted will be grounds for a JR.

It will 100% face a JR on the climate action plan though, and it'll be one of those cases that'll be very important for showing the state exactly what their responsibilities are when it comes to climate change. At a guess, I'd say the state will argue that it's about net zero, not absolute zero, and the courts shouldn't interfere with how the government chooses to get there. No idea how that'll fly in court.

hans aus dtschl · 03-04-2025 12:54PM

Yep I think it'll be very interesting. Again though I don't see why they don't just wrap the whole thing in GTS, directly linking the sustainable mode share "offsetting" projects this one. Everyone would be a winner. I might disagree with "de ring road" (bypass/distributor hot mess) concept but if the city at least got net better transport at the end it'd be a good thing.

riddlinrussell · 03-04-2025 02:00PM

If the revised submission doesn't include significant considerations around reducing car access to the city and replacing that with appropriate public transport and cyling/walking infrastructure then GCC are deeply unserious about actually getting a ring road vs seeking the right to complain about not having one.

The previous application was very transparently shut down on climate requirements so if this contains only token amendments then it shows a council entirely opposed to trying to reduce car dominance in the city and knowing that they probably won't get approved

Jayuu · 06-04-2025 04:18PM

Given that this thread is now around 17 years old does anybody have a link to the official plan or route map? The main website is a confusing mass of links but as there are references to 2020 all over it I don't know if it has been updated any time recently.

KrisW1001 · 06-04-2025 11:34PM

2020 was the latest design. This was submitted to planning, got planning and then that planning was overturned as being incompatible with the government's environmental treaty obligations. You can safely ignore anything earlier than the 2020 design.

Markus Antonius · 14-04-2025 07:32PM

I think Cork is getting all of galways's infrastructural money....

Their proposed 18km light rail will be finished long before the sod is even turned for the bypass

veryangryman · 15-04-2025 06:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123357527#Comment_123357527

Corks had decently high office politicians. Coveney and Martin.

Galways are muck. Anne Rabbitte. FML

KrisW1001 · 15-04-2025 07:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123360293#Comment_123360293

It’s not the Dáil. The council is to blame. Waterford has better transport infrastructure than Galway, despite being smaller, just as much an “ancient city plan”, and having only ever had one “Minister” in decades.

Looking back on the history of transport projects in Galway, a failed piss-up in a brewery comes to mind.

M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

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