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Legality of removal of protesters from Holocaust commemoration ceremony.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,302 ✭✭✭Allinall


    Their event. Their rules.

    What right had they to be there in the first place?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 573 ✭✭✭Jim Herring


    Not my president.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,937 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    They had every right to remove the protesters from the venue, just like bouncers can remove you from a nightclub for any reason



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,034 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    There was no question of a "breach of the peace".

    Nobody was arrested or charged.

    RTE reporting that some of the protesters were re-admitted later in the ceremony.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    OP, you appear to have a trend of trying to start threads with a certain agenda which sometimes might not be fully disclosed until a few posts in. There is nothing wrong with you starting threads of course. I'm not a moderator. But why not just be more clear on whatever you are trying to say rather than trying to "sneak" it in?

    To answer your ostensible question, presumably it was a privately own venue. And any implied right to be there can be revoked. Once she was asked to leave and, given reasonable time, refused to do so, they are perfectly within their right to remove her in a reasonable way.

    This is not the anomaly you might be trying to represent. Below is a photo of a lady who was arrested for wearing a particular T-shirt in the gallery of an event in Washington DC where your buddy Mr. Netanyahooo was speaking.

    https://x.com/frankthorp/status/1816175704708407494

    Regardless of personal circumstances, Higgins is the President and there should be respect for the office if not for the individual. The attention-seeking lady trying to get herself some more publicity is apparently not from here, and if not a citizen, then should she ever apply for citizenship, one would hope that her actions could be taken into account when assessing her application. The exact same as in any other country.

    In fact, even in the ostensible bastion of free speech - the US - non-citizen visa holders are protected under the first amendment in terms of protesting, but the smart advice is always given to be very very careful and err on the side of caution if you are there on a visa and protesting. The first amendment is of zero use when it comes to preventing your status from being cancelled, or if your visa is not renewed. I wouldn't fancy the chances of an Irish person with an Israeli visa retaining their status should they insult the office of the Israeli President in a similar manner.

    A student in the UK with dual Canadian-Jordanian citizenship won an appeal against the stripping of her UK visa for having the controversial opinion that genocide wasn't a great thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/oct/30/manchester-university-student-dana-abu-qamar-wins-back-visa-after-pro-gaza-comments



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    I think most people would approve of the removal of holocaust deniers from any event, I'd say the same is true for the removal of genocide deniers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭political analyst


    A privately-owned venue? But the official residence of the Lord Mayor is a public building, isn't it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    I don't know where it was on. That was why I said "presumably". I presumed it was to be held at a private venue mainly because of the discourse around people tying to prevent the resident from attending! Regardless, they have a right to withdraw any implied permission for anyone to be there. If someone went in there with a crackpot conspiracy banner that the Holocaust never happened, I'm sure you'd agree they should be removed - no?

    If it was there, it actually makes it worse IMO. How insulting is it to the Irish State, and by extension its people, to be carrying out such acts at such a venue? Presumably one would expect a greater sense of decorum at such a venue - no? Not to mention that it was presumably provided free to the attendees by the same State they were taking umbrage against. I have no problem with that venue being used, but it reeks of an entitled tantrum to be accepting something from this State with one hand, while insulting it with the other.

    Imagine some hypothetical fantasy land where the residence of the equivalent of the Lord Mayor of Tel Aviv was to have an event marking the people who died as a result of the "Irish famine" and instead of being happy that it was being recognised, Irish people living in Israel started trying to demand who could and could not attend it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,628 ✭✭✭Augme


    So everyone has the right to stay in a public building and can't be asked to leave. 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️ this must be from the same school of thought that a Garda must give you their hat if you want to **** it in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    I must remember that the next time I'm on a night out in Dublin and don't look forward to traveling home. I will rock up to the Lord Mayor's gaff and demand my right to a bed for the night.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,520 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Depends on what you mean by "public building". It belongs, I think, to Dublin City Council which is a public authority; in that sense it is publicly-owned.

    But "publicly-owned" does not mean that any member of the public has a special right of access. Dublin City Council, as the owner of a bulding, has the same right to control entry to and presence in the building as does any owner of any building.

    I don't know whether this event was by invitation only or whether it was public in the sense of there being a general invitation to anyone who wanted to attend. But, either way, those present were there at the invitation of Dublin City Council (or, possibly, at the invitation of some person or body to whom the premises were rented for the night). If you're there by invitation, and that invitation is withdrawn, you become a trespasser and, if necessary, reasonable force can be used to remove you from the premises.

    (There might be a legal issue if you've paid to attend. You could then argue you have a contractual right to be present, and withdrawing your invitation is a breach of contract. That might or might not be a good argument, depending on the terms of the contract, but the argument is certainly there to be had. But, even then, your primary remedy for breach of the contract is damages for not being permitted to attend the event. But I don't think any of this is relevant here; this wasn't an event that people paid to attend.)

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,824 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    wonder about the genocide of the Palestinian people by the Israelis, because that’s what it is there. Plenty denying that at events. Would the same legal standard apply ? I’d suggest not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,235 ✭✭✭Economics101


    @ Donald Trump (#6): "Regardless of personal circumstances, Higgins is the President and there should be respect for the office if not for the individual".

    The event was to commemorate what was something without equal in terms of sheer evil. The Holocaust should be regarded as uniquely evil, not just because so many millions were systematically and brutally murdered, but because the extreme nationalist hate-mongering which lay behind it is not dead, as we have learned in recent years. And by the way it was not just a holocaust of Jews, but you can add in hundreds of thousands of Sinti, homosexuals, the mentally handicapped and others as well.

    If we are to respect the office of President of Ireland, then perhaps the President should respect to memory of the Holocaust by refraining from other issues, even very grave and urgent ones, like Gaza.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,861 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    I wonder if the gays or the Sinti spent 50 years bombing Palestine would the right wing be as quick to fawn over them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Perhaps he should respect its memory every single day by refusing to be bullied into refraining to speak out about its modern day ongoing equivalent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,680 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The ‘Holocaust’ happened because too many ‘refrained’ from speaking out.
    They were silenced by the perpetrators of that particular holocaust..

    World leaders have a duty to call out similar and the braver ones have.

    P.S. the term ‘mentally handicapped’ ’ is no longer an appropriate or acceptable phrase. Replaced by ‘intellectual disability’ or ‘special needs’ quite some time ago



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,235 ✭✭✭Economics101


    A great bit of whataboutery, that. And did my post fawn over the actions of the current Israeli Government? No.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,235 ✭✭✭Economics101


    If I were referring to contemporary events, I would not use terms like "mentally handicapped". That trem is positively benign whan compared with the vile descriprions of such people by the Nazis. If you want to convey the horror of these acts, then using terms like "special needs" rather glosses over the ugly reality when one wants to convey the attitudes which "justified" mass murder.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,680 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You should denote that by putting it in quotes. You are quoting others.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,235 ✭✭✭Economics101


    I may not have phrased my post adequately. Clearly if the President wants to speak about Gaza, that's OK in principle. But if there was one occasion in the entire calendar when the focus should be uniquely on the Holocaust, it is Holocaust Memorial Day.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    And if there was a day to remember the Irish Famine and the President said in his speech that we should not forget there are still famines ongoing in the world at this minute, would that cause you as much bother?

    It's frankly perverse to use a historical event as a bar to speaking out about a contemporary injustice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,287 ✭✭✭ZeroThreat


    All Michael D. Baggins cares about is using any event as a public speaking opportunity to bash the western world, the United States and anyone they support (Ukraine included - recall the letter he published using his wife's name)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,159 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Extremely moving remembrance ceremony from Auschwitz museum just finished on bbc. Taoiseach Michael Martin and many other heads of state placed candles in memory of the millions who died.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,980 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Really? 🙄

    If we are to respect the office of President of Ireland, then perhaps the President should respect to memory of the Holocaust by refraining from other issues, even very grave and urgent ones, like Gaza.

    Our President would be doing the world an injustice to remain silent on any genocide, including one carried out by the Israeli government.
    What is unfortunate is that any criticism of the actions of the Israeli government is deemed as an attack on people of the Jewish faith - this ability to label any criticism of the Israeil military as anti-semetic is nonsense - the Israeli government should not be allowed escape criticism because they pretend it is directed towards their religion or culture.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 573 ✭✭✭Jim Herring




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭political analyst


    The claim that Israel has done genocide has not been proven.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Higgins himself has demeaned the presidency by commenting publicly on contentious issues.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,680 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    That is an opinion.
    In mine and many others opinion his refusal to stay silent is admirable and something to be proud of. I think his re-election numbers will back that up if you dispute it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 467 ✭✭itsacoolday


    Correct. World leaders have attended a commemoration event at Auschwitz. None have put their foot in it like Higgins has here. All were quiet and respectful and let the representatives of the 6 million plus victims do the talking.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 838 ✭✭✭cheese sandwich




This discussion has been closed.
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