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Trump - The positives - (see Mod note in OP)

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    To, somewhat, return to the original question.

    The main positive of Trump is that he has no underpinning ideology whatsoever. He made some good moves on e.g. criminal justice reform cause Kim Kardashian asked him to. If they right people can convince him of something he doesn't care enough about what it is and will push it through. I suspect the chances of any "right people" getting near him this time round are slimmer though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,489 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Huh? The whole point about medians is that they don't account for extremes at both ends.

    The median of the series 1, 5, 9 is 5.

    The median of the series 4,5,6 is 5.

    The median of the series 1, 5, 5.00001 is 5.

    The median of the series 5, 5, 999,999 is 5.

    In other words, medians tell you precisely nothing about distribution, and changes in medians over time tell you precisely nothing about changes in distribution over time.

    If you want to know why the US as a whole has been getting wealthier while individual Americans typically feel that they have not, income distribution and changes in income distribution is very far from a tangent; it's absolutely at the heart of it. Data about medians serves, if anything, to obscure this, and will be cited by people who either aren't interested in considering income or wealth inequality, or are actively trying to avoid considering it.

    US income inequality did improve under Biden, but only fractionally. It got worse under Trump I thoug, again, not by very much.

    My suggestion here is that the election of Trump is primarilly a result, not of what happened in in the US under Biden, but of what has been happening in the US for the past 40 or 45 years.

    \US income inequality got dramatically worse under Reagan and Bush I, got dramatically worse again under Clinton, got worse still under Bush II, stabilised somewhat under Obama but did not improve, got slightly worse under Trump I, got fractionally better under Biden, but not to a material degree.

    Since this has now been going on for more than a generation, as far as most voters are concerned it's not an aberration; it's normal — it's a feature of the system. And it's not a partisan thing, since it happens under both Republican and Democratic administrations — again, it's a feature of the system. The only variable is how fast it happens and, on the whole, even this doesn't correlate very well with the party in office.

    After more than a generation of this, what you have now is a generation of voters who have no expectation that, over time, the growing wealth of the US will mean that their situation or that of their children will improve significantly. That's a huge change in a society in which every previous generation, pretty much since the US was founded, took for granted that things would continuously improve for the typical or average family. And this generation of voters doesn't see living standard stagnation as the fault of the Republicans or the fault of the Democrats; they see it as a characteristic of the US's political and economic system that operates regardless of which party is in power.

    I think this is why they are so open to a disruptive, destructive candidate like Trump. They see, and like, the disruption; they close their eyes to the destruction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,264 ✭✭✭✭Rjd2


    I listened to an AOC podcast with Jon Stewart and she said something similar. They are chasing the upper class elusive type voter taking the working class voter for granted and then along came Trump with his fake populism and here we are.

    Trump calls out the issues with America such as economy, health care, concerns about immigration and while his solutions are nothing, at least he acknowledges that country is in trouble while the Dems seem content to go along with "its all good" , this at best for many working class people looked naive and at worst looked cruel.

    It will be studied for years, but when Trump was doing all these silly but eye catching gimmicks such as working at Mc Donalds, Harris was flaunting Liz **** Cheney. How disconnected can you be to think that ever was acceptable?

    I do think plenty of the Dems do have the right idea, but the money in politics is insane, for stuff in the house , you just need to buy of a few people and obviously look at the senate where Sinema did that vile curtsy after she rejected a minimum wage increase, stuff like that sticks with voters and reenforces "both are as bad as each other narrative" that hurts them when its voting time.

    She also called out the Dems for their stock trading, screeching "the GOP do it to!" no just no, stuff like that resonates and infuriates working class voters.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 195 ✭✭Samson1


    Its not that you are bad, its just that like many on here you haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about, See #97 below, there was a huge swing of young voters to President Trump in 2024. In fact that is what won it for him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,933 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    The Democrats saw how popular Sanders was, with the energy and enthusiasm young voters had for change, and said Absolutely **** Not. I'll be well into middle age before there's (hopefully) even a chance to vote for a candidate who might actually run on a populist, people first platform. It's maddening.

    The reality is it's more profitable for the Democrats to be a controlled Opposition party than it is to rule. They love to lose, over and over again.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 382 ✭✭breatheme


    The thing is, for better or for worse (and I'm a Sanders supporter), he's not a Democrat. He's and Independent. And the Democratic party is not as hijackable as the Republican party.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,264 ✭✭✭✭Rjd2


    The manner how they fucked over Bernie twice definitely caught up with them in 2024 especially with the so called bro vote who he able to connect with him much easier than so many of the corporate drones that represent the party.

    Joe Rogan is a bore these days, but the freak out over Bernie trying to connect with his base in 2020 was infuriating especially considering how much Biden and Harris embraced some of the worst neo cons in the last 4 years.

    Regarding the party at this moment, I did find it amusing how yet again its the left who lost for them according to the usual bores. Harris gave the left nothing, she ran to the right on immigration, wasn't bothered about Israel's genocide, was quiet on climate change and even something like Lina Khan, she refused to commit to keeping her. She praised Dick Cheney ffs. 🤐



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,007 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The only positives about Trump to me are:

    The electric vehicle mandate is gone. I think personally it should be up to the customer to decide on what car they buy.

    The gender-madness is also gone. The whole gender and diversity and inclusion madness often discriminated me in job life.

    Other than that, there are not many other positives I can see about Trump.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    He also lost something like 8 of the first 12 primaries. I don't think Clinton was a great candidate or anything, but she was legitimately more popular than Sanders among democratic voters.

    But your core point is entirely correct. He is not now, and never really was, a Democrat. He would have done nothing to help down ballot Democrats and had he, by some miracle, become President he would have been utterly useless at getting anything through Congress.

    I don't think "we could have had a non-party populist before the Republicans" is a great argument.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,987 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    …yea, cause fcuk the environment, thats somebody else's problem!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,007 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I doubt the environmentaly friendlyness of electrical vehicles strongly. Batteries have to be manufactured, and the electricity has to come from somewhere as well… Plus the current technology isn't fully develloped, just look at price / value and range of them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 975 ✭✭✭Glenomra


    I believe that there are numerous positives for Americans in the election of Trump. I have little doubt but that he will prioritise the enrichment of America to the detriment of every other country in the world, be they friend or foe. He has the military and economic strength to achieve that outcome imo. For Europe, with our tens of individual presidents, prime ministers and foreign ministers; differing social and economic policies; economies of varying strength; our vulnerable currency; lack of our own energy sources etc, I personally don't see many if any positive. To make it worse, ireland is probably the most vulnerable European country to significant negative impacts arising from his MAGA policies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,987 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    not only does the materials for ev's such as batteries need to be manufactured using very questionable actions, questionable mining practices etc, but an absolute sh1te load of mined minerals, more than traditional fossil fueled vehicles, are also required, but the reality is, we ve no choice but to plough on with ev's, they simply are still far more environmentally friendly than fossil fueled vehicles. yes fossil fuel is still are most predominant power source, but thankfully we re starting to roll out more renewables, which will mean less reliance on fossil fuels in the future, its a very slow and expensive process to transition to alternatives, its a shame ireland may never adopt other alternatives such as nuclear.

    yes ev's are struggling to meet our needs now, but again, we have to start somewhere, im truly grateful for those that have converted to ev's, as most, including myself, simply wont be able to for a very long time, until its truly feasible to do so.

    this means ev's need to be incentivised in order to truly convert most of us to use them, its really the only way…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,007 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    This depends also very much on personal circumstances. Range is still a grave issue with EVs for those who drive long distances. But there doesn't need to be a government mandate as by when what percentage of cars are to be EVs or by when the EV would cover all new car sales. Ultimately the customer and how far the product develloped should decide. One single charge and 1200 km range at whatever temperature at a price for a conventional vehicle would do the job, but that's far away these days.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,987 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    yes range is still a major problem with ev's as is also the serious lack charging infrastructure, again, this is where the state needs to step in, its clearly obvious that market based entities, simply will not do whats actually required, as theres still too much vested interest in fossil fuel assets, maintaining this delay.

    again, this is why we need government interventions, this requirement to move away from fossil fuel simply will not occur if left to more market based approaches, theres simply too much resistances due to the above mentioned reasons.

    yup, thats whats ultimately required for ev range, but wont happen anytime soon, so ev's must go through multiple generational developments in order to get there, and the only way to do that is to simply do it over time, i.e. we must start somewhere, and do whatever we can to get there, to finally ditch fossil fuels, we re quickly running out of time though



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,933 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    The DNC had their thumb on the scale though, both in terms of announcing the allocation of Super Delegates ahead of the primaries, and overruling the actual results of them using Super Delegates. That was legal, given they are a private organisation, and not bound to follow results, but still scummy. I think they would have won comfortably with Bernie, both times. He energised people in a way Clinton and Biden didn't, and he was hated by large swaths of the country the way Clinton is. The DNC chose otherwise and here we are



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Clinton comfortably won pledged delegates. Not sure she was ever once behind in pledged delegates from the get go.

    They've removed super delegates but it was thr legit process in place at the time. they were always always going to go heavily to Clinton cause Sanders was never actually a democrat. It's not that complicated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,933 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    She won yea, but the DNC did everything they could to undermine Sanders ahead of voting, it was never a fair contest. Same again in 2020, when he was leading going into Super Tuesday. They have always hated the progressive wing of the party, which is one of the main reasons for their losses to Trump. Folks either don't vote or are taken in by his populism.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,987 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    very possible the ukraine war will come to an end, with a sting though!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,801 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Not casually ignoring anything at all, neither the 75m votes Harris got last year nor the (huge) majority that Clinton got in 2016 matter in terms of winning the presidency



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,933 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Correct, but it gives the lie to a claim that folks won't vote for a woman.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,411 ✭✭✭j62


    Take it up with Wikipedia from where I deliberately copied the definition from higher up if you disagree

    Not sure what you are arguing against since the whole point of the median was to not have it distorted by extreme wealth and poor on either end like the mean would be

    And yet you hilariously went off on about the extremes of inequality



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,489 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I've no problem with the definition of median; my problem is with your claim that medians, by their very nature, account account for extremes on both ends. That's not from Wikipedia; it's all your own work. The Wikipedia article, in fact, expressly refutes the claim.

    Moral: it's not enough to look up the Wikipedia article on a subject in order to entitle yourself to lecture others for not undertanding that subject. At a minimum, you have to read and understand the article yourself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 744 ✭✭✭Hungry Burger


    So how much you willing to pay then? We are already taxed to the hilt, and then the money is spent on bike shelters and multimillion euro huts etc. essentially squandered everywhere instead of the average citizen getting any benefit from it.

    That’s what a lot of Irish people need to realise, we aren’t right about everything we do politically. There’s a reason America is the most successful country in the world and their mindset and ‘psyche’ has a lot to do with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,585 ✭✭✭Kaybaykwah


    I wish the Irish people were on board to spend less on bike shelters and more on the space race to Mars, (500b $) or another armed invasion (Afghanistan, Iraq : Trillions) which both were lost. Let’s leave Vietnam and a host of others out of it.

    On success; you could argue that the Taliban drove the mighty US military out while wearing sandals and sporting home made bombs, and you would be right.

    If you think the US are a beacon and a force for good, you are strongly deluded.

    Chump only highlights more starkly how much of a bully they really are, but they are flailing now, rudderless in spite of the scarecrow that poses as a President, with China outpacing them in so many ways.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,801 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Apparently there are legal challenges from the states on some, or maybe all, of Trump's executive orders

    So he probably won't be able to get all the changes he wants

    That's a positive



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,875 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Mod: next poster to spout anti-trans crap will be permanently banned from Politics! (Bigoted nonsense posts deleted)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60 ✭✭Fletwick


    A positive for me is the return of common sense. The refusal to bend the knee to entitled, ego driven claptrap.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,344 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    Do you have specifics of how common sense has "returned"? What entitled, ego driven claptrap is now being refused?



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,875 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle




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