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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans lifted - see OP**

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭tibruit


    If you think the story about the German telling someone he had done a terrible thing is an "obvious lead" then you clearly do. It isn`t even hearsay.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,859 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    We've all read this about Mr Wolney; that he left the country within three months, told someone he had "done a terrible thing" and committed suicide. Certainly sounds suspicious, on the face of it - though it may have nothing to do with Sophie du Plantier. Or maybe it does!

    But what is the actual source for this story? Was it a document, or an interview, was it published in the Press or released by An Garda Síochána? Anyone know?

    I do love a proper source for information.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 556 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Well he wasn't wearing gloves was he, which would be the obvious thing to do if you're actually trying to conceal your hands…..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 556 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Until you have a run in with authorities, it's actually fairly difficult to understand that they might lie, or coerce people etc. A lot of people on here still take the Garda word as gospel for example.

    If someone you trust as an authority tells you a 'truth', most people who aren't criminals, or under interrogation for the first time, actually fully believe them, even if they personally have experienced something different than what was said. It is a very confusing situation. This is why people are told to go and get second opinions from doctors etc. (which isn't actually that common a thing to do).

    In any case Jules was effectively made an unreliable witness given all the goings on imo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 856 ✭✭✭csirl


    Pschologists arent medical professionals. They cant diagnose anything. No pschologist was officially uses in the investigation.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 856 ✭✭✭csirl


    No psychologist would have access to court recordings, medical records or criminal records without the individuals permission.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 668 ✭✭✭highpitcheric


    no thats wrong, as is your other post. a psychologist can indeed diagnose.

    Bailey had a borderline personality" based on "narcissism, psycho-rigidity, violence, impulsiveness, egocentricity with an intolerance to frustration and a great need for recognition".

    • Psychiatrist Jean Michel Masson and psychologist Katy Lorenzo-Regreny


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 856 ✭✭✭csirl


    Only a medical professional e.g. a psychiatrist, can diagnose a medical condition e.g. a psychiatric disorder. Psyvhology is not a medical discipline full stop.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 668 ✭✭✭highpitcheric


    That wasnt your claim. Your claim was a psychologist cant diagnose. That is wrong. A psychologist can diagnose a personality disorder. You are wrong.

    Bailey had a borderline personality" based on "narcissism, psycho-rigidity, violence, impulsiveness, egocentricity with an intolerance to frustration and a great need for recognition".

    • Psychiatrist Jean Michel Masson and psychologist Katy Lorenzo-Regreny


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 856 ✭✭✭csirl


    Scientologists also claim they can "diagnose personality disorders".

    There is good reason that in our universities, psychology sits in Arts/humsnities rather than science/medical.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,289 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "At some stage thereafter, Jules was stating it was impossible that Ian could have done it."

    What she actually said was - It was impossible that Ian could have done it without her knowing. Not that he could have left the house and gone over there and killed her in the middle of that night, without her knowing, but that she would have known in the aftermath of such a slaughter, from his demeanour.

    From an interview in the independent-

    " I know Ian had nothing to do with it,” she said.

    “He just wouldn’t be able to handle it. He wouldn’t be able to cover it up emotionally. He is not capable of covering up his emotions. I could read him like a book.

    “If he done something like that, I would have known. He is messy. I would have seen blood. I would have seen all sorts of things.”"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 856 ✭✭✭csirl


    The FBI also uses things like 'lie detector tests" that arent admissible in Ireland.

    I think your missing the point Im making.

    In Ireland, pschologists do not give evidence in criminal trials. Their views are irrelevant. It does matter what they say. A pschiatrist CAN give evidence in court of a medical mental health condition. But not a psychologist.

    Also, IMHO I dont see how any so called professional can diagnose anything based on media or internet reports, without access to the actual files/individual. I know a couple of highly qualified psychologists - they would never give professional opinions in these circumstances.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,640 ✭✭✭Xander10


    But why did she initially say to a friend and French News reporter that she "didn't know if he done it".

    She must have had some doubt

    She was asleep when he got up and left the room that night, so can't be sure of his movements.

    This is a woman that suffered horrific injuries from the hands of Bailey. And Bailey then stating "there was a pair of them in it" to dilute full responsibility.

    If she was willing to stay with Bailey after that can her judgement of him be seen as a bit blinded ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 668 ✭✭✭highpitcheric


    Why are you bringing up court or trials? I gave you the conclusions of some experts as to personality profile of the (self confessed) chief suspect in the case. That is it. That is all.

    All interpretations thereafter are yours. Dont bring your objections to me, I didn't personally reach these conclusions, I only presented their conclusions, its the doctors who used their long specialized educations and experience to establish these facts that you should go and object to.

    You might not see how experts can understand someones personality through writings and events but that doesn't mean they cant. A few posts ago you didnt even know a psychologist can make a diagnosis. Literally, its in text, on this page. Post #10476. "They cant diagnose anything." - You.

    Bailey had a borderline personality" based on "narcissism, psycho-rigidity, violence, impulsiveness, egocentricity with an intolerance to frustration and a great need for recognition".

    • Psychiatrist Jean Michel Masson and psychologist Katy Lorenzo-Regreny


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭tibruit


    If he had a pair maybe. Most men don`t. I`ve never owned a pair for casual wear and if you went about wearing the gloves of a manual labourer casually you would only draw more attention to yourself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,640 ✭✭✭Xander10


    Well if he was known to others and Jules & family as a man that didn't wear gloves, then suddenly wearing gloves the following day would have actually made him look suspicious.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 856 ✭✭✭csirl


    You keep on labouring on about how 3 psycholigists "diagnosed" Bailey. Where? Was not a feature of any of the trials or investigations in Ireland. Please give proof of an official diagnosis of Bailey (as opposed to a personal opinion of someone not involved in the case or with Bailey). There are many documents in the public domain, but I"ve never come across a formal report outlining a professional diagnosis.

    Its a bit like the lack of any physical evidence linking Bailey to the crime scene. Either a professional diagnosis exists or it doesnt.

    May I suggesr that you'rw going down a rabbit hole here with this psychology stuff? Would be better to concentrate on facts/evidence etc. No psychology report is proof of anything.

    Thankfully the Irish Courts deal in facts/evidence only and dont stray into opinions......its a dangerous road to go down when you try and use opinions to find people guilty.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭tibruit




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 668 ✭✭✭highpitcheric


    I keep on labouring? No. Not really. I pointed to something, and then faced many objections from those who simply would not see. I dont much care if the courts do/dont consider professional opinions. I dont much care if Bailey was guilty or not. Im not trying for something.

    I came to a thread, saw a mistake, dared correct it, presented a previously overlooked angle. And invoked much salt for my kind gesture. No good deed.

    And now we're at the point of pedantics over the word diagnosis. Very well. "A: investigation or analysis of the cause or nature of a condition, situation, or problem" - Merriam Webster.

    B: "a statement or conclusion from such an analysis".

    And there was an investigation, and there was a conclusion.

    Must I remind you again that you didn't even know until tonight that a psychologist could diagnose. You dont know what you're talking about.

    Bailey had a borderline personality" based on "narcissism, psycho-rigidity, violence, impulsiveness, egocentricity with an intolerance to frustration and a great need for recognition".

    • Psychiatrist Jean Michel Masson and psychologist Katy Lorenzo-Regreny


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "He just wouldn`t be able to handle it. He wouldn`t be able to cover it up emotionally."

    He would have handled it the same way he dealt with his assaults on Jules where he just casually fobbed them off in interviews by saying it was a combination of the drink and "there was two of us in it." He even expressed it to Fuller. He went up there and knocked on her door, just as he had done with Jules. But Jules let him in. He was projecting blame onto Sophie for her demise because she didn`t.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 856 ✭✭✭csirl


    To keep this thread on subject.

    Is the cold case review looking at the DNA that was found at the scene. There's so much more than can be gleened from DNA today. Even if there is no known match, you can still get information on the persons ethic origins, wider family etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 556 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    That's what the samples sent to FBI will hopefully help determine. Sophie's family connections are easy, and likely most of the gardai and forensics would have their DNA profile on file perhaps, for eliminating contamination reasons. It would be very tricky for getting a comparative sample for anyone who hasn't offered one up in the past though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,340 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    He would have sought to be accepted by her as a friend and an intellectual equal but the prospect of sex would have been pretty high on his agenda as well, I imagine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,215 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    Complete and utter rubbish but that’s not the first time on this thread you’re spreading misinformation


    https://www.thesun.ie/news/10794184/sophie-toscan-duplantier-jim-sheridan-cork-murder/amp/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭tibruit


    Still an urban myth I`m afraid. I don`t do misinformation. I never denied Wolney`s existence or that he committed suicide. Only that he ever told someone he had done something terrible before he died. Read the article you cited. No mention of it. Even Jim Sheridan knows better than to allege it because he knows it never happened.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,215 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    An “urban myth” reported in many newspapers for many years -urban myths don’t tend to get reported time and time again - prove it’s an urban myth so


    https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/documentaries/true-crime/sophie-toscan-du-plantier-suspects/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "prove it`s an urban myth so."

    Sure I have done so already and will continue to do so every time you come on here and fail to substantiate it. I`m sure if you try really hard you might find an off hand reference to it by some uninformed hack who wanted to make up a story on a slow news day and no doubt there are Baileyites who like to repeat it on Reddit or X or wherever. But go see does it exist in a witness statement or if it`s mentioned in a DPP report. You needn`t bother because it doesn`t.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,215 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    Why would it be mentioned in a DPP report about Ian Bailey ?

    So it’s “your opinion” then and not fact -glad we cleared that up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "Why would it be mentioned in a DPP report about about Ian Bailey?"

    Because if there was substance to it the DPP would have been all over it.

    "So it`s your opinion then and not a fact"

    Nah. The non-existence of something is a fact until someone proves it actually exists.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,215 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    Why would a suicide of someone be mentioned as evidence in an Ian Bailey prosecution? What possible reason would the Gardai have to reference that in a file that was designed to prosecute Bailey?
    Answer there is no logical reason to include it- it had no bearing on their case. Just because they didn’t mention it in their file to the DPP doesn’t make it an “urban myth”.



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