Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Forming the next Irish Government - policies and personalities

11112141617103

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 588 ✭✭✭harryharry25


    Screenshot_20250110-005123.png

    Fine Gael promised 60k a year, Fianna Fail promised over 75k a year



  • Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I dunno Francie, MM never went through with it so hasn't reached that moral nadir yet of going into power with SF. Maybe it was a temporary blip morally speaking when he considered it.

    1 of Lowry, Hutch and SF isn't bad all things considered.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,060 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    No, he didn't go through with it because he realised the prize he wanted most would not be available to him first - Taoiseach.
    He's proving it now along with Harris.
    Nothing is off the table in the cling to power.



  • Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Maybe his conscience caused a change of heart given the moral low he'd have to stoop to in that coalition.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,060 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Yeh, maybe, But that as they say, is an 'opinion'. Given his other behaviours, mine is not as charitable or blind.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 169 ✭✭Grey123


    There was talk on election night that a six TD difference was the magic number regarding a rotating Taoiseach. I think we are at 10. I don't support it.

    When was the file on the Moriarty Tribunal passed to the DPP? They seemed to have brushed passed that in recent reports. Was it before or after the election?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,361 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    I'd be interested in Michael Fitz part in this alliance given where he is coming from in his political history. A turfcutting campaigner and avid rural farmer, in an alliance of Independents replacing the Greens?

    Might be one or two policy changes if any govt has to include him!



  • Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    But an opinion none the less.

    For whatever reason he did the morally right thing in the end. Deserves some credit for that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,060 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    An a la carte 'opinion' if I may say despite all the proof you want that if Michael wants to leave his morals at home, he will at the drop of a hat.

    The same moral compass that allows him to excoriate SF for their alleged treatment of a woman(Maria Cahill) while simultaneously treating another abhorrently.(Louise O'Keefe) or again excoriating SF for their alleged support for an alleged rapist while remaining resolutely mute on his Ceann Comhairle supporting a convicted rapist.

    Plenty more examples if you want to inform your opine. I think the point is made though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,892 ✭✭✭Caquas


    As I thought. You are assuming these general provisions about civil servants briefing TDs/Senators also apply to this very different and exceptional situation. Even though the provisions you quote include a specific ban on "briefings to parliamentary party meetings …or similar type meetings".

    Mercifully, we do not live in your Kafkaesque world where Ministers are duty-bound to sniff out possible breaches of the Official Secrets Act. That Act has been used for many dubious ends in a neighboring jurisdiction but, even there, no one has been so bold as to claim that it justifies breaching the confidentiality of negotiations for the next Programme for Government.

    In any event, my point remains - it would be very damaging to the political impartiality which is the bedrock of our civil service if the senior officials who briefed the FF/FG negotiators immediately supplied Eamon Ryan with information from the negotiations for his piece in the IT. The Circular you quote provides no defence.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,975 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    It wasn't even a temporary blip morally speaking.

    MM made a remark one evening that was misinterpreted by some journalists as opening the door to Sinn Fein, which was repeatedly breathlessly by one poster on here. The following day, MM clarified his remarks that they didn't mean what the journalists said, and that FF were not considering SF, and as a result, the journalists never referred to it again, while the one poster still clings to that interpretation five years later, like a drowning man to a stick.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,975 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Let me explain it to you again more clearly.

    Civil Servant: I have been asked to give a briefing to the Government negotiators on the effects of moving from a 2:1 ratio favouring public transport to a 1:1 equal ratio. Here is the briefing note I have prepared for clearance.

    Minister: You can do the briefing on that basis.

    That is the normal inner workings of a Government Department.

    Nothing more needs to happen for Eamon Ryan to conclude that the Government negotiators are considering watering down the climate change commitments.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,060 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Here's RTE's senior political correspondent in 2023 referencing Martin's repeated ambiguity and refusal to rule it out completely.
    'Language' is important and it is language similar to that being used to accommodate the dalliance with Lowry that will be used to make a fool of those championing Martin's moral compass. He doesn't have a discernible one and as shown there are plenty of examples of just what he will stand over if it comes to it.

    Another noted his full frontal attack on Sinn Féin, in which he castigated the party for being anti-European, anti-enterprise and two-faced on climate action, but didn't actually close the door completely on a future coalition.

    When is absolute absolute? Martin and his big decision

    Same reporter who recorded for RTE the night he opened the door to SF. We know of course that he closed it the next day when he realised he was not going to have the seat advantage it looked like when he opened the door.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Its 5 years ago

    At the time the majority seen it for what it was

    That hasn't changed because a few went off on another tangent



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,975 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    There is only one person in the whole country still harping on about it today. It was a case of MM not wanting to openly put all his cards on the table, and that being maliciously misinterpreted, something which most people dropped fairly quickly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,060 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Quite simply and demonstratively wrong. Here is somebody referencing his ambiguity and creative use of language in 2023 as pointed out.

    Another noted his full frontal attack on Sinn Féin, in which he castigated the party for being anti-European, anti-enterprise and two-faced on climate action, but didn't actually close the door completely on a future coalition.



    Same as his pontifications on Lowry when found guilty by the tribunal of profound corruption are being remembered today. Someone whose resignation as a TD he called for is now a legitimate coalition partner by virtue of the fact they were elected.


    Micheál is the master of ambiguous speak.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Its repeat mode, this has been discussed multiple times already, in detail. It was never MM opening the door, the article used as "proof" before also had a statement from FF saying it wouldn't go into government with SF

    When people have nothing new to add they just go onto repeat mode.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,975 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    There has never been a direct quote from Micheal Martin to say he was willing to consider coalition with Sinn Fein.

    Anytime he has been asked he has either directly refuted it or more politely, said that he could not see how it was possible. Anything else has been he was reported at saying, he hinted at this, he opened the door etc. There is absolutely zero hard evidence that he would ever consider it. In fact, I would see him resigning first before he would go into coalition. For all the two-faced nature of some FF politicians, they wouldn't sacrifice their leader to put MLMD in government.

    The way that MLMD tried to get FF after this election to consider SF was demeaning if you are a SF supporter. She made no real effort to form a left-wing government to the extent that Coppinger and Boyd-Barrett had a go at each other when her nomination was made.



  • Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Until he actually facilitates SF getting in power we don't know if his moral can sink to those depths.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 573 ✭✭✭Jim Herring


    I must have missed this with my long Christmas work time off:

    • In 2020 Mary Lou received 45 votes, 84 against and 29 abstentions
    • In 2024 Mary Lou received 44 votes with 110 voting against and 14 abstentions

    To put these in context:

    • The number of seats increased from 160 to 174
    • She received fewer votes from non-SF TDs in 2024 (5) versus 2020 (8)
    • The number of votes against her increased significantly

    Begs some questions:

    • Why did she get fewer non-SF vote in 2024?
    • Did she not put any effort into coalition talks? (Beyond media potshots at FF etc.)
    • Or is it all down to the PBP-Solidarity changes plus Ruth ‘nationalize Dell’ Coppinger not voting for her?
    • Why did so many vote against her rather than abstain like last time around?
    • Is Mary Lou considered toxic by almost all other parties / party leaders?
    • Would SF have gotten more cross party support with another party leader in place?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,060 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Well if you continue to ignore the evidence you won't have an informed opinion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,060 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    To get back to the original point. I don't think FF FG properly anticipated the impact this dalliance would have. Has it the potential to upset the formation of a government I wonder. Questions coming from all quarters about it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,975 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    That is a very interesting analysis. There is no doubt that a lot of the sheen has worn off MLMD. She is seen both by the public and by other politicians as a tired option, with no positivity to bring to the table. When it comes to an election, people want hope, they want future ideas, and MLMD brings none of that, being perpetually negative.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,060 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Why tell porkies about the 'public'?

    The Exit Poll (the only data we have) showed that she is 1 percentage point behind MM as the 'public's' 'option' for Taoiseach.



  • Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't see what the confusion is. SF morally are far worse than Lowry. Not all crimes are equal. Both situations are bad but one is exponentially worse than the other.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,060 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    There is no confusion about hypocrisy. And that is why FF and FG are under the spotlight. Babbling about SF won't save them here. They'll be asked to answer about Lowry despite the plaintive deflection attempts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,975 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The other point to note is that FF and FG won't be going into coalition with Lowry. You can't have a formal coalition without the Regional Independents being a formal group. Lowry won't be in cabinet either, and, as an independent, will be free to vote against the government, should he so choose. The only practical effect of this revelation is that Lowry will be extremely reluctant to force another election in case the issue becomes a significant problem for him locally. That is what is probably driving the angst being seen among SF activists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,032 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    This coming from someone who uses Lowry as a deflection attempt about the convicted criminals within SF (one of whom they're intending to put in the Seanad, another of whom is a TD) is rich.

    You can't complain about deflection when you do it yourself, all the time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,361 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    Oh lord the arguments some people use to justify their perception of the best option.

    As no party has convinced anything like a majority we find ourselves with party's running around willing to accept any help available for power. FF/FG aren't likely to get support from SF, the next evil will do fine.

    Lowry has been used many times in recent years as the last prop for FG especially. A known crooked politician, Jesus wept when someone is arguing his virtues.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,523 ✭✭✭Rosahane


    I would hazard a guess that if Conor Murphy succeeds in getting a Seanad seat Mary Lou'd days as Party Leader are numbered!



Advertisement