ESB Damage Liability Question

Robertr · 29-12-2024 02:36PM #1

Hi, So my estate had a big issue with the electricy supply the other night. At about 3-4 am the supply jumped up to >350 volts and stayed there until about 10:00 when ESB arrived to fix. Was then off until about 13:00 - 14:00 when the issue was resolved.

Obviously this caused huge issues, with most houses in the estate getting multiple items fried/blown. Mostly lights, heating systems, appliances etc. or anything that wasn't protected by a surge protector, which for some included XBOX's, PS5S and other expensive electronics. Probably a few thousand in each house. My son's bedroom filled up with toxic smoke due to his PC power supply nearly exploding as it partly melted (thought it was on a surge protector but turned out to be a useless extension lead with no protection). The smell was toxic.

It was limited to our estate (only 33 houses) and the guys working on the box where the issue occured mentioned a faulty part. Obvioulsy not just a power surge given it lasted 3-4 hours. We have pictures from showing 370 volt (from an electritians reading) still coming into a house a around 9:30

A few people have contracted the ESB who said they need to go through their home insurance, that ESB are not liable. This seems unfair as this would result in increased premiums etc. when the issue was not caused within the property.

From what I can see online there seems to be some protection for the ESB in terms for powersurges caused by natural forces (lightinging strike, animals chewing lines etc) but would have thought they would be liable it it was a faulty part or down to lack of maintenance on their part?

The other strange factor here is that we are in a small country village and a new small estate is being built accross with road. I think the first 1-2 people moved in just before christmas and when we looked at the Powercheck app, it said they issue impacted 35 houses, not 33 even though the box is in our estate. Have to wonder if there was an issue caused by connecting the the other estate to our box as a number of redidents also noted lights flickering over the christmas period.

Just wondering if anyone has had any similar experience or knowledge on this subject. Thanks.

drury.. · 29-12-2024 03:08PM

Afaik surge protection won't protect u there

There's relays that will do it afaik . I've used them in industry for equipment for under/over voltage

Not an expert on the legal side of it but my understanding was that you are entitled to compensation. I've dealt with people (commercial) who had these issues and equipment damage , only on the technical side of it

Deagol · 29-12-2024 03:11PM

ESB are not liable unless you can prove they were negligent in some way. It wouldn't really be practical to have the rest of us to pay for your misfortunes would it? (i.e. ESB is state owned, so therefore we'd all be paying to replace stuff everytime the ESB network had a fault).

We had this issue a few years ago when a transformer shorted out part way through winding. Voltage went to ~270v and fried a few things before I managed to hit the main switch. Nothing expensive as I have UPS on my high priced stuff (TV, PC etc). I checked it at the time and it's just tough luck.

If you're worried about your premiums going up, pay the extra to get protected no claims.

And I strongly recommend UPS / protection devices on expensive electronics.

No one said life was fair ;)

10-10-20 · 29-12-2024 03:14PM

Hi there. That's horrendous. I don't have direct experience but I did have an indirect lightning hit two years ago which caused around 1900 EUR of damage to PC, TV's and network equipment in my house, but to no neighbouring houses. I ended up no going through insurance as 1) they wanted to send an assessor (to do what, tell me that my PC and TV are broken) and 2) we had an excess of around 500 EUR anyway, plus the added cost of the premiums over the following years just made is nonsensical to try claim back from them. There was also something about depreciation of electrical goods… but I don't recall the details on that.

Anyway, what I would be doing right now is getting as many of the affected neighbours assessed by an independent assessor with the objective of completing a list of affected items, including assessing whether any of the safety devices (RCD's, sockets, etc) were likely to have been operated beyond their specified ratings. You'd also need to consider that in situations like this where electrical over-stress are applied to items, they aren't all going to fail at the time of the event - you are likely to experience a higher rate of failure of these devices over time; so bear that in mind.

The second step would be to create a group and nominate a leader with the following objectives:
Determine the overall cost of the fault to the group as whole and then on a per-resident basis highlighting the min and max cost of damage. This will become the point where members can individually decide whether it's financially worthwhile in pursuing this further.
Ask the ESB for a report on the fault to be provided to the group within 30 days.
Start looking for a solicitor evaluate the case to see of there is any opportunity of collective redress from previous case history or other legal avenues. Obviously you should be looking for one who has prior experience with this type of action.
Obtain a costing estimate off the nominated solicitor and then decide on the direction from that point.

All off the top of my head and hopefully others on here will have additional ideas.

Wishing you luck.

drury.. · 29-12-2024 03:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122998171#Comment_122998171

My understanding was they were liable if u could prove fault

The science of how it happens isn't complicated. A simple connection issue on the 3P can cause it.

Btw having protected no claims doesn't mean your insurance can't rise the following year

Robertr · 29-12-2024 03:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122998189#Comment_122998189

Yeah, the question being what is "fault / negligence”. This is why I think it’s fair that they are not liable to natural causes outside of their control, but if it’s down to a faulty part, lack of maintenance or bad management of the network then you would think they have to be liable. That’s how business works. Also, that should be easy enough to determine, as its really just eliminating the natural causes.

The home insurance company could just as easily say that they are not covering if it, as it was caused by ESB.

@ Deagol “rest of us to pay for your misfortunes “…..really, my “misfortunes”. So, in your eyes your never responsible for how your actions impact someone else. Its just their “misfortune” so you don’t have to work about it. Nice. Screw the families whose kids just lost their Christmas presents because, its their misfortune and its “state owned”.

Regardless, I can’t image it would cost them a penny as they should have their own insurance exactly for this purpose.

drury.. · 29-12-2024 03:41PM

https://www.se.com/eg/en/product/RM22UA33MR/overvoltage-and-undervoltage-control-relay-15v500vac-dc-2-c-o/

Not familiar with this but an example of relay type

drury.. · 29-12-2024 03:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122998246#Comment_122998246

Presumably lightning strike is a natural event (and again the standard main board SPD isn't designed to protect against that)

Off the top of my head the undervoltage/overvoltage condition will usually be a maintenance issue /error by ESBN imo so they will probably be liable

Robertr · 29-12-2024 04:01PM

I'll update when I hear back for those interested in the future. Not too bad for me, already replaced the PC PSU so thats running fine. Have an XBOX series X that is dead but will just replace the PSU in that also and see if that works, they are only €80 part, then its just the heating controller which I can pickup on Monday and install and a few smart light switches. But other in the estate are much worse off and wouldn't necessarily have the tech know how to solve themselves.

drury.. · 29-12-2024 04:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122998319#Comment_122998319

Ah

And for that reason always had a preference for separate power supplies for equipment , Tvs etc.

Failure or damage it's a simpler fix

meercat · 29-12-2024 05:56PM

a brownout (neutral fault) could have caused this issue

called out on 2 different incidents of this

The first one was when esbn had a scheduled disconnection for maintenance/upgrade work. When the power was restored there was a problem on the system and caused problems like you described. They admitted liability and compensated the householder

the second one they didn’t pay out as a cable burnt out at the substation which they said wasn’t their fault

drury.. · 29-12-2024 07:05PM

Ya had a brownout type event recently the hoover suddenly slowed to a crawl between outages , made a dash for the main board

Usually I keep it off completely until power is reliably restored

Afaik these events are not as common as they used to be . A lot of upgrade work done on 3P overhead supplies etc

I think I'll actually look into some protection for the house

Robertr · 30-12-2024 11:36AM

when you think about it, it’s strange that this kind of protection is not built into the supply at the house connection box? How is the voltage supply not limited by a breaker? Just surge protect the whole property?

drury.. · 30-12-2024 11:51AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123000373#Comment_123000373

Protection against under/over voltage is a separate matter to SPDs( which are now standard on new work)

I will actually look into fitting this for myself as the issue has arisen for me lately again. They can be wired in conjunction with a contactor rather than switching direct (which is preferable imo) .

NewClareman · 30-12-2024 01:16PM

I would have thought that ESB Networks would be liable, unless the issue was weather related (i.e. could legitimately be classified as an act of God). I would certainly attempt to get them to accept responsibility.

I can think of two possible approaches, aside from the solicitor route:

Follow the ESB Complaints Procedure. This may be more effective as a group as it would clearly show that the incident was linked to a local fault.
Use the Small Claims Court, at an individual level. This has a limit of €2000 but you're not risking additional legal fees.
If you went route 1, and the process was exhausted (i.e. the CRU ruled against you), you could then consider going to your local TD, or even the local Press.

Personally I'd be slow to go down the full legal route, even as a group, for something relatively small. Costs could end up greater than expected and might not be recovered.

drury.. · 30-12-2024 01:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123000575#Comment_123000575

Damage can be major with these events

Would actually be useful if the voltage has been recorded by someone affected

Some of the energy monitoring stuff being used probably has that feature

Deagol · 30-12-2024 01:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122998246#Comment_122998246

Sheesh. Look up the word 'misfortune'. Not everything in life is someone elses fault. I never said I didn't have a certain amount of sympathy for the affected people - I thought it would be obvious without having to spell it out.

The insurance would have to be paid for - and all customers would have to pay for that. At the end of the day insurance isn't a magic money tree. An insurance company would charge the ESB more for the cover than they would pay out, that's how they make a profit..

You asked for the facts of the matter, I gave you them in respect of my investigations when it happened to me and the legal advise I got - and now you don't like them you are arguing about it. Seems to be a very common thing on boards unfortunately. No doubt you'll thank the people who give you the answers you want to hear but who are totally uneducated about the situation but like to give their opinions anyway.

I suggest next time you contract a service, read the contract, understand the limitations and cover yourself. That's what I did. But you somehow think I and other responsible people should pay higher ESB bills to cover the people who don't?

Not a wonder this country is the way it is with people suing for every misfortune - the worst is that we allow it to continue.

So my final advise and word on this is:

By all means engage a solicitor - there's plenty of them about who'll be more than happy to take your money and pursue a law suit on your behalf. And you may even get lucky and get a judgement that benefits you. But I pretty much guarantee you will not get a single solicitor to take it on a no win no fee basis - and that should tell you all you need to know. Good luck with it.

NewClareman · 30-12-2024 06:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123000632#Comment_123000632

The level of damage would obviously be a factor in pursuing a claim and/or compensation. In my opinion it would need to be substantial to justify the risk of going down the legal route. Legal costs tend to ramp up fast and could quickly dwarf the cost of the damage.

If you read the OP's first post the voltage was measured. In any case, I seriously doubt that ESB networks would dispute the fault and its consequences, that is not the issue. The issue is whether the incident was Force Majureq, hence avoiding any liability for compensation.

10-10-20 · 30-12-2024 06:35PM

Commercially, if there are no repercussions to a significant supply quality issue such as this then there is little encouragement to invest in continuous maintenance, upgrade or technology improvements. It's the carrot and stick of supply and demand.

autumnalcore · 06-01-2025 09:54AM

Client of mine had floating neutral in a factory, I got called because phones and printer went down l. Noticed the fluorescent lights were blazing when I went in and told them to hit the main switch. Amazingly most Dell computer stuff survived. ESB paid out eventually but made it a part time job for the owner pursuing it.

DublinWriter · 06-01-2025 10:32AM

Same thing happened to my brother a few years ago in a small estate in Meath. 450V shot threw the mains, blowing a ton of appliances in the houses. ESB initially wouldn't pay up for damages until the residents engaged a solicitor and it was settled out of court about six months later.

Robertr · 10-01-2025 11:20AM

Just to update, seems the ESB are not contesting at all. Contacted me today to advise a loss adjuster would be in contact next week. Fair play to them (for now!)

10-10-20 · 10-01-2025 11:41AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123040369#Comment_123040369

Thanks for the update! Just for future reference, what steps had you collectively taken or did you each go to the ESB individually?

Robertr · 10-01-2025 12:12PM

As few went individually (logging as a complaint), then a regional manager contacted on of us and asked that everyone impacted log a similar complaint and the loss adjustor would contact them. They called me today to expect contact on it next week. I say "for now" as I won't count my chickens on this yet.

Sierra Oscar · 10-01-2025 12:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123040369#Comment_123040369

Yeah I am not surprised to read this at all, I was going to chime in as I was reading down the thread and was surprised at the suggestion that ESB Networks would not be liable and making a claim would be a waste of time.

It's not uncommon for the ESB Networks to cover compensation for damage caused as a result of network failures, they have a team to deal with such cases afterall. Of course damage caused as a result of weather conditions is another matter entirely or for issues that they could not reasonably predict / plan for.

Like, the electricity market is incredibly regulated and that encompasses ESB Networks. An event such as this likely resulted in an automatic referral to the Commission for Regulation of Utilities. Network failure is documented and recorded, ESB Networks can't exactly just wash their hands of an event such as this and pretend it never happened. You absolutely 100% should query it with ESB Networks.

GreeBo · 10-01-2025 02:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123040640#Comment_123040640

+1

The ESB have insurance for this type of thing, like any other business.

Lenar3556 · 10-01-2025 05:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123041222#Comment_123041222

I think the commentary was around to what extent ESB were strictly liable for the occurrence. i.e If they didn’t play ball and you pursued them through the courts would you be likely to succeed?

While there may well have been no dispute that excessive voltage entered the premises via the ESB network, it is another matter entirely to demonstrate that it arose through ESB’s negligence or misfeasance.

The response from ESB is to be welcomed and I have come across similar engagement in another case. It may well be weighted on the ‘good will’ side rather than any strict liability however.

ESB Damage Liability Question

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